pdhntr
Silver $$ Contributor
My pleasure. First pic is of near one removed. Second pic is of the "bearing" itself. Does not roll, stationary, monolithic, metal.
Jim
Pacific M scale issue, need advise.
- Thread starter pdhntr
- Start date
My pleasure. First pic is of near one removed. Second pic is of the "bearing" itself. Does not roll, stationary, monolithic, metal.
Jim
pdhntr
No idea how many rounds you load a week but after going electronic I will never go back to balance beams. I have several fairly accurate antiques but they are just for decoration. You can find some nice electronic scales for a reasonable price and you don't need to break the bank for an accurate one
No idea how many rounds you load a week but after going electronic I will never go back to balance beams. I have several fairly accurate antiques but they are just for decoration. You can find some nice electronic scales for a reasonable price and you don't need to break the bank for an accurate one
I cannot place absolute faith in an electronic device that is subject to variances in current, voltage, other electronic interference, temperature and plain old electronic fatigue.As well as a host of other influences that I'm not aware of. Unless I have a basic dependent on consistent physical entities like gravity balance to check my results. Remember that those electronically driven devises such as air craft use redundant or even multiples of electronic metering controlling systems.
I base this on the premise that electronic "stuff" can misbehave and it does not give you concrete indications that its lying to you.
I prefer the redundancy to confirm my results.
I base this on the premise that electronic "stuff" can misbehave and it does not give you concrete indications that its lying to you.
I prefer the redundancy to confirm my results.
Almost certainly not a bearing problem. The old "M" type, although looking a little agricultural is a good solid scale with few faults.
The round glass hard bearings are unlikely to wear even after a lot of use - and if they do, just slacken the retaining bolts and rotate each bearing a quarter of a turn and re-tighten. You then have a pristine new bearing surface that will last for another 30 years.
Two things I would do, would be to scrub across the beam notches with a soft brass wire brush and buy a basic set of grain checkweights. Both RCBS and Lyman do a set for $30-$40
It the scale repeats reliably and you have checkweights you can't go wrong.
If your 6br load is 29.6 grains, just place 29.6gn checkweights in the scale pan and zero you scale to that, every load will be the same. A scale doesn't need numbers to be accurate.
This is not a new idea - here's a Pacific with no numbers at all.
And a Redding:
The round glass hard bearings are unlikely to wear even after a lot of use - and if they do, just slacken the retaining bolts and rotate each bearing a quarter of a turn and re-tighten. You then have a pristine new bearing surface that will last for another 30 years.
Two things I would do, would be to scrub across the beam notches with a soft brass wire brush and buy a basic set of grain checkweights. Both RCBS and Lyman do a set for $30-$40
It the scale repeats reliably and you have checkweights you can't go wrong.
If your 6br load is 29.6 grains, just place 29.6gn checkweights in the scale pan and zero you scale to that, every load will be the same. A scale doesn't need numbers to be accurate.
This is not a new idea - here's a Pacific with no numbers at all.
And a Redding:
hate to break this to you but tens of thousands of rounds are loaded weekly using electronics with no ill effects, and with a lot more accuracy and speed than with the mechanicals.
pdhntr
Silver $$ Contributor
If you really want to keep using the balance then add a 10 or 20 grain weight to the pan while you’re measuring your +/- 30 gr charges to move you away from the 30 gr “discontinuity” area.
pdhntr
Silver $$ Contributor
Almost certainly not a bearing problem. The old "M" type, although looking a little agricultural is a good solid scale with few faults.
The round glass hard bearings are unlikely to wear even after a lot of use - and if they do, just slacken the retaining bolts and rotate each bearing a quarter of a turn and re-tighten. You then have a pristine new bearing surface that will last for another 30 years.
Two things I would do, would be to scrub across the beam notches with a soft brass wire brush and buy a basic set of grain checkweights. Both RCBS and Lyman do a set for $30-$40
It the scale repeats reliably and you have checkweights you can't go wrong.
If your 6br load is 29.6 grains, just place 29.6gn checkweights in the scale pan and zero you scale to that, every load will be the same. A scale doesn't need numbers to be accurate.
This is not a new idea - here's a Pacific with no numbers at all.
And a Redding:
I scrubbed the beam notches in my process of testing, and I have turned the bearings and tested that.
I realize it isn't a bearing problem, but I have to check its repeatability at the 29.5 to 30.0 grain area.
I am ordering a set of scale weights. Thanks for the help.
Jim
pdhntr
Silver $$ Contributor
And I considered that while testing the cleaning. 11-12 grains would put the masses just where I would want them.
I need a good set of test weights to do that. I am ordering them.
Thanks.
Jim
Depart123
That argument in no way invalidates the points he made.
I have not one, but two magnetic force restoration analytical balances as well as a run of the mill Pact digital scale, and I still prefer the simplicity and reliability of my vintage Ohaus 505 for most of my reloading. It is durable and repeatable and requires no warm up time.
Last time I checked the repeatability with it, over 30 charges it had an extreme spread of .09 grains and an SD of .03 grains. I have performed this 30 charge test at least 2 other times I can think of and had the same result. (I get bored sometimes and this is a good check on my technique as well as the scale)
I use my analytical balance for ELR reloading and for proofing my set of laboratory check weights as well as a few random other things from time to time.
good for you, seems as if you have a fine scale there. I could never get any of my mechanicals to be that accurate even after watching several videos and reading every article and post I could find on the subject of how to accurize them and then rigging up a USB cam to prevent parallax. I tried with 2 M5's and a 505. Guess I just had bad luck. but it wasn't just the accuracy that turned me off, it was the speed. Waiting on the darn things to settle tried my patience
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sparker
Silver $$ Contributor
An observational understanding of mechanics is all that is necessary to use a beam scale with great efficiency. Dampened periodic motion is what we are dealing with in a beam scale. I find it takes approximately 11 seconds to complete a 46 grain charge of extruded powder using a proper beam scale and an electric trickler. Ymmv
Scott Parker
Single Kernel Scales
Coyotefurharvester
Silver $$ Contributor
I think any scale calibrated to the target weight will be more accurate, repeatable is a whole different action. I just have basic equipment and hunting/varmint rifles so I load in the middle of 0.4+ grain nodes. Throw into pan, on e scale, check every 5 or 10 on the balance scale. Both scales use same check weight. Best I can hope for +,- 0.1 grain that's per my scale manufacturing specs.
well Scott I could easily get all 3 of my O'haus made scales to register a kernal of Varget added. I extended the pointer, and used a USB cam to eliminate parallax. Sensitivity was not an issue. However two problems soured me on using a beam scale for day to day use
One was the settling, I will take your word for it that you can throw and trickle 46 grains in 11 seconds. For me the scales would resume swinging everytime I trickled in more powder and I would have wait for it to settle out before adding more. Depending on how many time I needed to trickle and wait, it could easily take me over a minute just to weigh a single charge charge
The second issue was repeatability between uses. I used several pieces of lead as check weights. I cut various lengths for appx. 10 grains, 20 grains, 40 grains etc then weighed on a friend's Sartorius and recorded the exact weight of each. Even after repeated leveling, cleaning the pivots with electrical cleaner and lint free cloth and stoning the knives it was hit or miss whether any of the beams could come within .1 grains when I would test them before use. I just could not have faith in their accuracy or precision once I started double checking my charges on a electronic scale or weigh the check weights.
That's just my experience, others mileage may vary as they say. I have no dogs in this fight, no reason to lie about it. Now I just use my electronic scales for measuring and collect the beam scales and old powder throws as decorations. I plan on putting some shelves above my work benches to display them
Depart123
Technique is as important as the scale.
I throw the charge 0.2 grains light, trickle up to just a few kernals shy. Then I bottom out the pointer side of the arm by lifting up slightly on the pan. The arm settles in a few seconds and I can add the remaining few kernels if need be. Takes longer to write than do.
I've gotten to the point that I can judge the "bounce" of the arm from the pan lift by the tick marks on the pointer guard. Before the arm even settles I know if it needs 2-4 more kernels or not.
well I have pretty much settled on a Chargemaster for a rough throw then the A&D and hand trickle routine to exact charge weight.
I use the CM to throw the charge, transfer to a second pan and check it on the A&D to fine tune. By the time I seat a bullet and put it in the box the CM has another charge ready.
My tools are highly sophisticated. My trickler is my thumb and index finger, the funnel on top of the A&D came from a kitchen funnel set, the powder pan on the A&D from a box of laundry detergent and a small glass bowl also commandeered from the kitchen keeps a supply of powder for fine tuning the loads. Works for me and I would never go back to beams. If/when my CM dies I will go the Autothrow route
I suffered for years with a Hornaday beam scale. The pressed-in steel ways are simply junk compared to aggat in the Ohaus built scales. Last year I got my hands on an RCBS Ohaus built scale and no coincidence, my groups got smaller! Scotts tuning tricks, especially moving that little washer got it working again.
With my Hornaday scale I was having the same problems as the OP, so I had come up with a means of checking my loads in process. I'd weigh the first charge, fill the cartridge and set it by the scale. Every 5 loads I'd pour that first load back into the pan and observe any changes in the scale reading, correct beam location on the ways until the scale returned to the original reading, then proceed with the next five. PITA! but it helped make the loads more consistent.
As Meangreen wrote, TECHNIQUE is key until you're able to find a decent scale. Electronic scale are a no go for me. I load in the garage and temp swings have rendered useless every electronic scale I've tried to far.
With my Hornaday scale I was having the same problems as the OP, so I had come up with a means of checking my loads in process. I'd weigh the first charge, fill the cartridge and set it by the scale. Every 5 loads I'd pour that first load back into the pan and observe any changes in the scale reading, correct beam location on the ways until the scale returned to the original reading, then proceed with the next five. PITA! but it helped make the loads more consistent.
As Meangreen wrote, TECHNIQUE is key until you're able to find a decent scale. Electronic scale are a no go for me. I load in the garage and temp swings have rendered useless every electronic scale I've tried to far.
Ill grant that you are smarter than I am and your system is superior, and your shooting is far better, precise and accurate than mine. While your at it please tell the pilots flying F type aircraft that you are going to remove one of their redundant computer control systems. Im sure they will appreciate your confidence.
I still will continue to use my outdated method. Thank you for your concern and input. Rogn
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