Shouldered or Nut Barrel

[Spotshooter]

Letting a barrel’s headspace determine where the barrel is indexed 2 has a couple off effects that one should consider.

1) Barrel Timing
The Bore path while it “exits” the barrel is not specifically indexed up or down like a normal rifle A smith does. When you smith mounts a barrel he generally indexes the barrel so that when it is tightened the bore doesn’t point sideways which makes some really wierd off vertical as distance increases things happen.
So... if you simply adjust for headspace with a prefit & tighten it down... who knows.
Here I’m referring to which way the bore is heading as it leaves the barrel - it’s almost never straight.
You can almost see the direction if you roll the barrel around on a flat Surface, then mount the high spot as you rotate the barrel. Then install it with your headspace guage and see what direction it points... down is ok for short distance rifles, up is great for long haul & short... sideways - um, not so much.

2) Tenon to bolt nose clearance.
Just before a smith times your barrel they cut the tenon (actually you do this at the same time) so the amount of clearance between the barrel tenon, and bolt nose is 15 thousands or smaller (I like it smaller)...
You have to have some clearance.. so it can’t be zero - but remember that web in the brass helps strengthen the part that’s sticking out... however, if it’s more than 15thousands - you could have unsupported case wall extending past the tenon (NOT GOOD).

So... do you know what the clearance is between the bolt nose and the Tenon when you set you head space ? You can check... don’t put in the headspace gauge, and crank the barrel in until it hits the bolt nose... Mark the barrel / action... unscrew it counting your turns, put in the headspace and see where it ends up when you hit your gauge... the number of turns different X threads per inch/1” = the tenon to bolt clearance... remember it shouldn’t normally be more than .15 thousands... and ideally less than that.

 

[Dusty Stevens]

And you just order "any" prefit bbl?

Well, if you have a savage or one of the many actions that take the savage barrels, you order the savage barloc. If you have a remington you order a remington prefit and the remington thread pattern barloc- same with any of the other threads they make (such as the 18tpi)

 

[Dusty Stevens]

Letting a barrel’s headspace determine where the barrel is indexed 2 has a couple off effects that one should consider.

1) Barrel Timing
The Bore path while it “exits” the barrel is not specifically indexed up or down like a normal rifle A smith does. When you smith mounts a barrel he generally indexes the barrel so that when it is tightened the bore doesn’t point sideways which makes some really wierd off vertical as distance increases things happen.
So... if you simply adjust for headspace with a prefit & tighten it down... who knows.
Here I’m referring to which way the bore is heading as it leaves the barrel - it’s almost never straight.
You can almost see the direction if you roll the barrel around on a flat Surface, then mount the high spot as you rotate the barrel. Then install it with your headspace guage and see what direction it points... down is ok for short distance rifles, up is great for long haul & short... sideways - um, not so much.

2) Tenon to bolt nose clearance.
Just before a smith times your barrel they cut the tenon (actually you do this at the same time) so the amount of clearance between the barrel tenon, and bolt nose is 15 thousands or smaller (I like it smaller)...
You have to have some clearance.. so it can’t be zero - but remember that web in the brass helps strengthen the part that’s sticking out... however, if it’s more than 15thousands - you could have unsupported case wall extending past the tenon (NOT GOOD).

So... do you know what the clearance is between the bolt nose and the Tenon when you set you head space ? You can check... don’t put in the headspace gauge, and crank the barrel in until it hits the bolt nose... Mark the barrel / action... unscrew it counting your turns, put in the headspace and see where it ends up when you hit your gauge... the number of turns different X threads per inch/1” = the tenon to bolt clearance... remember it shouldn’t normally be more than .15 thousands... and ideally less than that.

I pretty much get called an idiot everytime i mention bolt nose clearance. Most ive seen are .020+ so theyll fit any action. All anybody gets concerned with is setting headspace

 

[ND shooter]

Well, if you have a savage or one of the many actions that take the savage barrels, you order the savage barloc. If you have a remington you order a remington prefit and the remington thread pattern barloc- same with any of the other threads they make (such as the 18tpi)

Understood. Goes without saying( and I didn't say!) I should have posted my question with more clarification. Thank you.

 

[ND shooter]

Just went back and actually read the barloc advertisement. First time was just a quick look/see. Should have done that in the first place. Wasted precious seconds of our short life time. Thanks again Dusty.

 

[ND shooter]

Yes

Yup understood. Thank you

 

[shortgrass]

I pretty much get called an idiot everytime i mention bolt nose clearance. Most ive seen are .020+ so theyll fit any action. All anybody gets concerned with is setting headspace

If you're an idiot when it comes to bolt nose clearance, I guess I am too. I start at .010" and go less from there. I want as much case 'buried' in the chamber as possible, without having any interference between the bolt nose and the barrel.

 

[gme]

"entities should not be multiplied without necessity." the rule of Occam's razor is why I prefer conventional shouldered barrels as well as other "simple" solutions

 

[scope eye]

If the barrel is going to stay on that action until it is shot out then I would go with a shouldered barrel.
If you are going to be taking it off for what ever reason then I would say Nut barrel.
Me I like my nut barrels exhibit A

 

[Dusty Stevens]

If the barrel is going to stay on that action until it is shot out then I would go with a shouldered barrel.
If you are going to be taking it off for what ever reason then I would say Nut barrel.
Me I like my nut barrels exhibit A


View attachment 1211413

But if youre going to be taking them on and off wouldnt a shouldered barrel be better? Theres no adjustment, your brass fits back to the exact number not even .001 different than the last time you used it. Cant do that with a nut

 

[scope eye]

Why would you take it off to begin with if you are going to be putting the same barrel on again.
What I meant was if you take it off to put another barrel on, and as far as head space goes I have dialed in many rifles by playing with the head space some way beyond min or max. I don't know why or how but it really changes the POI.

Dean

PS: The longest Barrel in that bucket the one with the funny looking barrel nut is a .500 RUM for a Rem 700, Ouch I am going to have to put a break on that one did I say Ouch

 

[DirtySteve]

But if youre going to be taking them on and off wouldnt a shouldered barrel be better? Theres no adjustment, your brass fits back to the exact number not even .001 different than the last time you used it. Cant do that with a nut

Actually couldn't you use LockTite on the barrel nut when setting the head space, then when you remove the barrel the nut will stay in place...??..? This would keep the benefit of ordering prefits and add the quick change capability of the shouldered barrels.. Just throwing this out for discussion,,

Edit.....I mean Locktite the Nut to the Barrel..

 

[jelenko]

From my experience, the nut must move to take the barrel off.

But, would it work if the nut were frozen to the barrel?

 

[scope eye]

I always mark the barrel and they action when I seperate them, but for what ever reason it is never exactly the same shooting rig as before I screwed with it, don't get me wrong it is still fine but it is not what it was before I screwed with it, nothing a bit of tweeking won't fix.
IE: This happens when I go from lets say from a 243 then I put the 243AI barrel on and then go back to the original 243 barrel.

Dean

 

[Dusty Stevens]

I always mark the barrel and they action when I seperate them, but for what ever reason it is never exactly the same shooting rig as before I screwed with it, don't get me wrong it is still fine but it is not what it was before I screwed with it, nothing a bit of tweeking won't fix.
IE: This happens when I go from lets say from a 243 then I put the 243AI barrel on and then go back to the original 243 barrel.

Dean

Its because you cant see the resolution for .001 and its going in and out of tune. Im sure you could tweak your seating depth and get it back

 

[scope eye]

That is what I end up doing I adjust it until I find the sweet spot it is never where the mark that I made is, but not that far off either it is not uncommon that I find an even better setting.

Dean

 

[boltfluter]

Last I heard Ted had discontinued the Bar-Loc, as there have been issues with barrels moving during matches and the point of impact changing. Not sure if he has worked out the bugs or not. Just an FYI. I personally always use shouldered barrels as I don't believe a nutted barrel will shoot to it's potential. More joints is not a good thing imho.

Paul

 

[gat]

Shoulder it!!! Too many points of "contention" with barrel nuts. Imagine with me if we set up a block of steel in our milling machine and indicate its horizontal surface to .0000 then we drill a hole and then mill hole perfectly round and 90 degrees vertical in our steel block. Next we tap the hole to lets say 3/4x16 . Mind you all of our operations are performed with a tolerance of .0001. now lets go to our lathe and thread a piece of rod 3/4x16 around 12 inches long, again to our exacting tolerances. Now we machine a nut to fit the 3/4x16 rod. All surfaces are smooth chatter free and the nut fits snugly with hardy any measurable "wobble" . Back to the mill where our steel block is waiting, once there we thread the rod vertically into the horizontal block and then install the jam nut. Before we tighten all parts together we put a coupe of indicators on the top end of your threaded rod. What happens when we begin to slowly tighten that jam nut??? As closely as we monitored all aspects of our build we still inflict torque as will be shown by our indicators running wildly as we begin tightening the jam nut. What we have accomplished is adding a point of contention. If we torque to a specific poundage and record it as well as the numbers shown on our indicators, then loosen the nut and tighten again to the same recorded torque what are the chances the indicators will show identical numbers as first observed??? Almost zero chances, perhaps we could get close and if we do get lucky and get it to match exactly how many times out of ten can we do so? Not hating on the concept of barrel nuts just saying....II wonder how many National bench rest winners shoot rifles with barrel nuts?? Let the Hating Begin....

 

[Will Henry]

I have been building rifles with nuts of a different thread, like the alternut, for about forty years when I felt it was necessary. Another method I have used is to make a split nut, like on a reloading die. With it, you can turn the barrel in to where you want it then snug the nut up finger tight. When you tighten up the screw on the split nut, the barrel is locked in place.
Generally, I prefer a shouldered barrel on a switch barrel rifle because I don't have to fool around with a gauge when switching barrels. Just tighten the barrel up and the headspace is just as it was. WH

 

[scope eye]

There is a smith up in New Hampshire I can't remember his name for the life of me,
anyways he machines they end of the barrel into a hex so he can use a wrench, and he does not even have to remove the stock to swap barrels. Barrel nut or Shoulder it's a one Minute swap how cool is that.

Dean