44 mag

[Intheshop]

One problem I have with jacketed Laguna is,the soft edges created by the forming dies. What I've learned shooting cast varmint is,the sharper all the leading edges are,the more damaging it is to tissue.

So,would look(or possibly modify) for the sharpest meplats in whatever weight bullet your rig prefers. And can not overstate accuracy.... both the rig's and your field shots. Find a mid level load that will build confidence and muscle memory,and dry fire about every day. Am sure you're already doing a lot of this stuff,just gotta keep pounding away at the fundamentals.

One trick was posted in another thread about backing yourself up against a truck tire or tree,whilst sitting. Using crossed shooting sticks. Just sayin,if you're hunting you got to get off the bench. This keeps your torso in check. Wear a ball cap,bring the bill down as low as possible while getting the sights aligned..... it increases your depth of focus.

Another "trick" is,if you're having trouble focusing on fr site..... during dry fire,looking out a window,you can use the window screen as a "check system" for your focus. Meaning,get your head about 6' from screen looking out with pistol at full extension...... you should be able to hold within a cpl screen "squares". It's a great way to shorten up your focus(it's a lot shorter focus shift at 6', down to your arms length than say a can or something,50yds out in the yard). Do it enough and watch your scores.

 

[linebaugh]

A reasonable alternative to GC, which may not be needed. I loaded for 500 smith in a custom rifle I built and did not want to fool with adding GC. They make cork and cardboard cards in many sizes and I would simply add powder, seat a card of proper diameter over the powder and then seat a bullet. Keeps the base from being heated and also helps seal up not allowing gas cutting.

 

[Laguna Freak]

Hard cast will lead your bore if undersized to the cylinder throats, if properly sized it's not an issue. Size your cast bullets to the throat diameter or +.0005" and you should be OK. If using the proper alloy with a good lube, sizing to throat diameter or up to +.001" larger should almost negate the need for a gas check

To clarify for simplification on my end; Are y’all in agreement that with regard to cast bullets, I need to adhere to one or both of these statements by Twicepop? Assuming I can do so with mass produced cast bullets?

 

[linebaugh]

To clarify for simplification on my end; Are y’all in agreement that with regard to cast bullets, I need to adhere to one or both of these statements by Twicepop? Assuming I can do so with mass produced cast bullets?

Yes. Beartooth and montana will size to .001 for you. Not sure what a taurus throat typically is. Lee also makes sizing dies that screw into your press for little money if you need to resize.

 

[Laguna Freak]

This is a fantastic bullet and really all you need. Very accurate too. Suggest you also look at the Lyman Devastator{see below}. There is no such thing as "hardened" lead...lead is not hardened like other metals. Lead can be made into a harder alloy by adding certain metals, but that is not what you want. They call lead bullets "hard cast" to get folks who don't understand to buy them. True hard alloy lead will lead up your bore and not shoot very accurate after not too many rounds. You are concerned with the Brinell hardness number of the bullets, not sales hype. Best of luck sir.
View attachment 1203637

Please educate me re; the Brinell hardness number or range of numbers I should be focused on for hogs and bear defense.

 

[SSL]

Please educate me re; the Brinell hardness number or range of numbers I should be focused on for hogs and bear defense.

Lyman #2 is around a 16. Much higher than that starts to lead in my bores, but I also size my bullets at least .001" over bore size. I'm a believer in the alloy being soft enough to obturate and seal the bore completely. Bullets too hard can lead worse than too soft. Most bullet casters use a lube that is too hard too. This is to prevent lube loss in shipping, but isn't suitable for melting as the bullet passes through the bore. Find a few fired bullets and see how much is left in the grease grooves. Most cast bullets by major casting companies will still have the grooves filled with that hard lube and rifling marks engraved in it. Useless.The melting is essential for evenly coating the bore and inhibiting leading. 16 to 18 is plenty hard enough to hold together and penetrate deep and straight. Straight, deep penetration of a properly designed cast bullet trumps the fancy designs and trick bullets that manufacturers try to sell. Cheaper to shoot and easier on your barrel too.

 

[msinc]

Please educate me re; the Brinell hardness number or range of numbers I should be focused on for hogs and bear defense.

Certainly sir, these are the kind of tested numbers that have proven to work good for me over the years. This is a condensed version of info, so remember there can be more to all this, but it's the basics.
So dead soft pure {or very close to it} lead, which is referred to as the "Holy Grail" by serious bullet casters {because it is so hard to get ahold of} is typically down around 5 or 6 BHN. 7 to 9 or 10 is very soft with little alloyed metals. 11-12 is starting to get a little stiff, but still very useful for good bullets and to me when you get up into the 13-15 or 16 BHN that is what most folks refer to as "hard lead" or hard cast. 12-13 is typically where I start to see bore leading occur in most guns and it can be a problem, again, depending on loads, velocity, etc.
There are some very excellent bullet lubes out there these days, so you can get away with shooting those numbers without any leading issues, but that will also depend on the bore condition and your given loads.
All of the above said, the twist still has to be at least close to reasonable if not correct. If the twist is just too fast it will lead up. Also, polygonal rifling will typically lead up too and lube or softness wont really fix that.
Other things come into play too, for example, with harder lead you have more other metals that are not as dense as lead. Typically tin and/or antimony are used and the higher amounts the lighter the bullets will weigh when cast from a given mold.
You have to watch as cast bullet weights. I have a mold for 300 grain 44 caliber bullets. If I cast pure lead they will weight in a little heavier, say 310 or 320. If I cast some out of 15 BHN metal they typically only weight in at 265-275 or so grains. In a high performance cartridge like the 44 mag you should adjust the powder charge to be safe.
Here is a tip to tell if you found some dead soft pure lead...when you melt it in the pot and get it all fluxed and clean it will develop a pretty blue color on the top that looks like bright fire blued gun parts.
Suggest you join the "cast boolits" forum, they are a fantastic bunch of very knowledgeable and helpful folks. Most have forgot more than I know.....best of luck sir!!!!

Edit: I guess I should add, and many casters will agree, good clean lead that has been melted and carefully fluxed to remove the impurities is way more important than a few BHN numbers either way. You are not going to know much difference between 11BHN bullets vs. 13BHN's, but shoot a bunch of sandy dirty bullets down your favorite pistol barrel and you will see some problems.

 

[Laguna Freak]

Wow! I should have figured this subject was going to be deeper than I anticipated.

What say you about the Beartooth BHN = 21? Is their heat treated alloy really not brittle?

Copy from Beartooth;
“This is an issue with bullets of higher antimony content, as they are brittle alloys. It is not uncommon for straight linotype bullets to shatter on the large bones encountered on elk, large wild hogs, bear and moose. These alloys are typically hard, in the BHN 21-24 range.

One of the more common of these alloys is linotype with an antimony (Sb) content of usually 12%. Bullets made from this alloy are very brittle, and will predictably shatter when fired at modest velocities if they encounter large bone mass or steel targets.

There are also those commercially cast bullets which use a 6% or higher antimony content and are heat-treated to bring their hardness up into the BHN 21-24 range. Although not nearly as violent, nor dramatic, these bullets too can, and do break apart on both steel targets as well as large bone mass in game animals, even at handgun velocities.

This brings us to the reason that we use a 3% Antimony alloy at Beartooth Bullets. Although we too heat-treat our bullets to a BHN 21-22 hardness, this low antimony alloy retains the ductile toughness of the un-heat-treated alloy. This alloy, is hard, and tough, not brittle and prone to breaking or shattering like the alloys containing twice to four times the antimony content of our alloy. Our bullets have proven themselves on moose, grizzly bear, Asiatic water buffalo, African cape buffalo, elk, nilgai, zebra, wild boar, moose, eland and multitudes of other heavy boned game animals the world over... usually with complete penetration, and what few bullets have been recovered, most are near perfectly in tact, retaining 90-100% of their original weight when fired at handgun velocities and retaining 70-100% original weight when fired at rifle velocities.“

 

[nicholst55]

Wow! I should have figured this subject was going to be deeper than I anticipated.

What say you about the Beartooth BHN = 21?

Some recommended reading to answer some of your questions:

http://www.lasc.us/FryxellCBAlloyObturation.htm

http://www.lasc.us/Fryxell_Book_Contents.htm

Most commercially cast bullets are harder than they need to be. This is for one reason - to prevent damage and distortion during shipment. Period. The myth that cast bullets need to be harder than woodpecker lips to prevent leading is a marketing ploy, and nothing more.

 

[msinc]

......Most commercially cast bullets are harder than they need to be. This is for one reason - to prevent damage and distortion during shipment. Period. The myth that cast bullets need to be harder than woodpecker lips to prevent leading is a marketing ploy, and nothing more.

Yes sir I agree 110%...there was also issue of when they used to {I am sure somebody still does} make the so-called "swaged" bullets. Lead wire was cut and mashed into the shape and size of a bullet, then it was poorly lubed with mica dust. Most had sides that looked like knurled metal for gripping purposes. These things would lead up a barrel terribly. The marketing ploy answer......"hard cast" to get people to buy them again!!!

 

[Intheshop]

"One" way to look at bullet hardness/toughness is like a shock absorber.

Using a super stiff,road racing shock.... which works great on a pool table smooth billion $ track....

Is gonna be useless on a bumpy dirt,mnt road.

A soft,dirt valved shock will fare better when it's out of it's design window. Maybe a bad comparison but you sorta get the idea. Yes,there are instances where super hard and probably more important,"tough" alloy can put you in the winners circle but it's so dependent on a litany of other aspects(remember the spray gun).

You really are best off,IMO for hunting handguns starting about dead center on bullet,hardness/toughness. Then you can let the gun figure out what it "likes" by adding or taking away elements of alloy. And with pretty quick,and clear results. You can fine tune with diameter.

A high antimony %,in jacked up revolver loads,usually.... "wash" the barrel in the first few inches. Rifles can,and do wash in different places. Bottleneck case turbulence creates some issues that can see you turning grey prematurely if you aren't the experimenter(relying on conventional theory)..... and don't have dogged persistence.

Heck,books have been written,on lube and now powder coating. I guess folks need this? gives them something to mess around and play chemist... beats me. I use the most basic,plain jane,vanilla, lube on the planet. By adjusting the beeswax ratio,take it to 3k fps in varmint vaporizers. As posted above,in a 44,use a soft lube.

 

[Twicepop]

I really have not considered casting my bullets. At least not at this stage of the game, and you are confirming that I don’t have time or space for it these days. So, I’m relegated to buying bullets whether jacketed or hard cast.

Do you custom casters have opinions on the bullets mentioned above? Cast and bonded-jacketed?

I really have not considered casting my bullets. At least not at this stage of the game, and you are confirming that I don’t have time or space for it these days. So, I’m relegated to buying bullets whether jacketed or hard cast.

Do you custom casters have opinions on the bullets mentioned above? Cast and bonded-jacketed?

If you buy bullets from a commercial caster, try to get those with a flat base. They are a bit more forgiving about gas cutting than a bevel base bullet. Bevel base bullets are slightly more prone to gas cutting (melting) as opposed to a flat base. Some of the commercial casters offer bullets of different sizing diameters, get the ones that are at or up to .001" over throat diameter of your gun.

 

[Laguna Freak]

Thank you for sharing your knowledge and links to more reading. Y’all have given me a good start on a straight / efficient path.

 

[rockhound78]

If you are looking for heavy cast bullets, GT bullets had a 285gr SWC and a 305gr HP, both made of a 2-2-96 (tin/antimony/lead) alloy, which should work for you. You can get different diameters of the bullets.

I shot tens of thousands of the 429421 Keith swc at about 245-250gr out of my 44mags, many decades ago. Just plain wheelweight alloy, and leading was either nonexistant, or minimal. Brinell hardness was probably around 12-13.

The .0005" to .001" over chamber mouth is a good one, assuming that is over bore size though. I did have a Colt New Frontier Single action army with a .428" barrel and .432" cylinder mouths. I tried .429", .430", .431" , .432" and lastly .433" bullets (the 429421 swc). It was interesting how the groups shrunk as bullet size went up, with the .432" and .433" being almost identical in grouping.

In my Super Blackhawk, I use .432" bullets as I sent the cylinder off to have the cylinder mouths/throats machined to a consistent diameter from chamber to chamber, and the largest was .4315", so now all of them are .4315".

As far as jacketed go, the 270 deep curl should work but look into the 300gr offerings by Hornday, and Sierra too.

 

[SierraCJ5]

Thank you!

What minimum length would you refer to as a “long cylinder”?

The Ruger Super Redhawk cylinder is 1.75" long. I'm comfortable adding 1.7" to case head rim thickness to determine an effective MAXIMUM load OAL for the SRH. With only ~.050" clearance from bullet nose to end-of-cylinder a secure crimp becomes essential. This dimension is usually only a concern if loading long heavy bullets in the 300+ grain class.

 

[Laguna Freak]

My Taurus Raging Bull cylinder measures 1.765” long and cylinder throats are 0.428” diameter.

Looks like I should be good to shoot up to 300 gr if I want or need to for accuracy. Yes???

 

[Laguna Freak]

I’m considering lightening up the hammer and trigger springs too because the factory originals are quite heavy.

Wolff, Galloway, remove a coil or few???
Experience and suggestions?

 

[Laguna Freak]

If you are looking for heavy cast bullets, GT bullets had a 285gr SWC and a 305gr HP, both made of a 2-2-96 (tin/antimony/lead) alloy, which should work for you. You can get different diameters of the bullets.

I shot tens of thousands of the 429421 Keith swc at about 245-250gr out of my 44mags, many decades ago. Just plain wheelweight alloy, and leading was either nonexistant, or minimal. Brinell hardness was probably around 12-13.

The .0005" to .001" over chamber mouth is a good one, assuming that is over bore size though. I did have a Colt New Frontier Single action army with a .428" barrel and .432" cylinder mouths. I tried .429", .430", .431" , .432" and lastly .433" bullets (the 429421 swc). It was interesting how the groups shrunk as bullet size went up, with the .432" and .433" being almost identical in grouping.

In my Super Blackhawk, I use .432" bullets as I sent the cylinder off to have the cylinder mouths/throats machined to a consistent diameter from chamber to chamber, and the largest was .4315", so now all of them are .4315".

As far as jacketed go, the 270 deep curl should work but look into the 300gr offerings by Hornday, and Sierra too.

Is this post indicating that you have experience with the GT 285 LSWC? GT does not apply BHN to their bullets. So, I’m curious if your experience permits you to assess this bullet’s BHN.

 

[linebaugh]

Great looking bullet but I would never use that at full power. Hardness is probably 12-14. If you wanted to try them ask if they will give you 3-3-94 instead and run them with a card over the powder/under the bullet.
All of the alloys that utilize equal tin and antimony will have the highest ductility, meaning they will deform well without shattering. This is probably the reasoning behind the use in their HP designs. If they do not contain trace arsenic they will not be hardenable to any degree.

GT bullets are nice. I shoot the 145 HP in my 9x21 at a whopping 1070fps. The 285 Keith you called out would be an excellent load at about 32Kpsi. Milder and still pretty darn effective.
If however you want full potential please just order some montana/beartooth/cast performance of proper fit at 300-325gr and get to shooting. As stated above the large flat meplat is where the trauma comes from on cast bullets. You will get nice long wound channels vs short fat wound channels on a hp.

 

[Laguna Freak]

I clipped 2 coils off my hammer spring and 1.5 coils off the trigger return. “Feel” is noticeably lighter and hammer strikes with force.

Is there any reason to need a Lee Factory Crimp Die or is a standard roll crimp adequate?