Well remington pulled it off-

[Twicepop]

You must not shoot much, a box of 50 is just enough to make me mad.

I call it the milk and bread syndrome, let the weather report say snow, especially where I live because we rarely get it, and milk and bread disappears from the stores, same with guns and ammo, let someone say pandemic or democrat in the White House, and poof, there gone.

I think that if things really did get bad, let's say this pandemic had a 50% death rate, the economy collapses and your currency was of no value, you would need things to barter, guns and ammo will be almost as valuable as food and water, you wouldn't be holding off the national guard, you'll be holding off your neighbors.

If this thing called the "American Project" would happen to crash and burn for whatever reason (pandemic, Democrats finally push it over the edge) ammunition will become the next currency. Back when Barry Soetoro found his way into the White House, several of the big account money managers backed up that sentiment. Green backs will be like the currency was in the Weimar Republic, it became cheaper to burn it for heat than the amount of coal they would purchase for the same effect. I've seen pictures of people with a wheel barrow full of that money just to by a loaf of bread. Think it can't happen again, we haven't had anything to back up our money since Nixon took us off the Gold Standard, what we have now is Fiat Script.

 

[skeeljc]

....Why does anyone need 25,000 rounds of .22 LR ammo?.....

When you shoot 500 rounds per week and there is a shortage.

 

[TrapperBR549]

It all started when they put the wrong twist in the .244...…………….

 

[Texas10]

They get the award for the worst run company in the world. In the time of probably the worst shortage of ammo in history, while other companies are building new plants and lines to keep up, remington’s ammunition plant in lonoke, ar will close its doors. The employee’s last day is the 29th. If they had half a brain they could keep the company afloat right now with 22lr and 223 ammo. Add in the pistol ammo and the shot tower they have they can put out a staggering amount of ammo per day if they only had a chance.

Seems like a good opportunity for an individual or group to buy the plant. Anyone wanna go halfsies?

 

[SPQR70AD]

For some strange reason, Remington is $750,000,000 in debt. Because of pressure from the political left, some major banks are not investing in anything to do with the firearm industry. Remington tried to restructure their debt but could not find the money. Having a major plant does not mean you can purchase supplies to operate it. Having major debt means you have no operating capitol and are most likely late in paying bills. Too much of that and no one will sell you the necessary supplies.

Another major problem for Remington is the current law suit which the courts have ruled can go forward. They are being sued simply for being the manufacture of a firearm that was used in a mass shooting. With that threat sitting there just waiting for a major hit, no one wants to help them. Who wants to invest, in a company facing hundreds of millions of dollars, in settlements.

As far as hoarding, Many serious rim fire shooters will buy large quantities of ammo just like re-loaders buy powder, bullets and primers. They want the same batch of supplies, pursuing accuracy. Send a rim fire rifle to Lapua for testing and after finding the best match for your rifle, you must buy at least 10,000 rounds of that batch. A serious competitor will burn that up in a year.

Of course there are those who really are hoarding for no good reason. They go into a Walmart and buy up anything on the shelf. They don't care that it might not be the most accurate ammo for their rifle. Just like toilet paper, those who had plenty on hand, bought anything left on the shelf, not caring if it was soft or thin or suited to their septic system. I saw signs in stores that stated "No Returns on paper products." Now ain't that something? When was the last time any of you ever returned a roll of toilet paper, for a a refund.

Lastly, folks have lost confidence in Remington. At a time when dealers can't keep enough inventory on the shelves, Remington is forced to offer prices that have been discounted to a new low and additional extra rebates, on some of their most popular models.

most of the 750 mil was stolen and the company with all its workers thrown in the garbage to rot. the people that loot companies for a living are demons and it is no accident the company that owned Remington was named Cerberus a 3 headed dog like monster that guards the gates of hell

 

[Just Say Moe]

Evidently they need to split the ammo and firearms divisions in the bankruptcy. Sell the ammo division to a reputable manager (like Olin did to Winchester ammo) and let them make millions.

 

[timeout]

May be more complicated than what meets the eye.

 

[SBS]

Remington is in about the same difficulty as Savage was in 1990. That ended in the company being sold at the auction block in parts and pieces. It was years later before Savage centerfire rifles were a factor in the market -- rimfires a lot later and shotguns were never revived. Strange to see a number of shooters here celebrating the loss of a major firearms company. It doesn't benefit shooters for any of our firearms companies to disappear. This bust and boom gun market is in large part to blame and lawsuits plus the political climate on firearms just heaps coals on the fire.

 

[mensajd]

If you have ever read academic b-school and economics studies/literature, you would know that most acquisitions fail. Not surprising since you have to pay perhaps 25-50 percent control premium (depending on market conditions - especially comparables) to even buy the target company in the first place. So you start in a hole. The acquiror may shed non-core businesses. If the acquiror is an operating company then it may exploit “synergies.” Meaning acquiror lays off some people who have duplicative functions. It’s tough on some employees but if the target was well run in the first place, enterprise value + control premium would be prohibitively expensive. There have been evil public companies like Enron, Avant!, Marvell Semi, etc., but they are not common. Usually, the target company management just fu**ed up. Some of you imagine evil corporate trolls that don’t exist.

 

[antelopedundee]

When you shoot 500 rounds per week and there is a shortage.

Yeah, some do but I bet that a hell of a lot don't.

 

[TC260]

Their issue is they keep taking away proprietary cartridges or offering them in crappy twist rates. Think if they fully supported the .260 or the .338 RUM? The 6.5CM and .338 Lapua would be “Meh” if remington went 100% full throttle with it

How much more money does Remington make on a rifle chambered in 260 or box of ammo compared to making them in another round like a 243?

 

[hogpatrol]

It all started when they put the wrong twist in the .244...…………….

And the .17 Remington.

 

[300_whisper]

How much more money does Remington make on a rifle chambered in 260 or box of ammo compared to making them in another round like a 243?

that’s exactly my point. If they pimped the .260 hard enough and supported it with an abundance of ammo options and twists then the 6.5CM would be mute. The .260 Rem would have been king. But they abandoned it like they do all their designs.

 

[spaniel]

If you have ever read academic b-school and economics studies/literature, you would know that most acquisitions fail. Not surprising since you have to pay perhaps 25-50 percent control premium (depending on market conditions - especially comparables) to even buy the target company in the first place. So you start in a hole. The acquiror may shed non-core businesses. If the acquiror is an operating company then it may exploit “synergies.” Meaning acquiror lays off some people who have duplicative functions. It’s tough on some employees but if the target was well run in the first place, enterprise value + control premium would be prohibitively expensive. There have been evil public companies like Enron, Avant!, Marvell Semi, etc., but they are not common. Usually, the target company management just fu**ed up. Some of you imagine evil corporate trolls that don’t exist.

The acquirer in this case didn't put their own money fully on the line; they weren't "all-in". They loaded the company down with an additional $200M in a leveraged buy-out. They got their money out of this and aren't taking a loss in the bankruptcy, and that's the problem. They weren't "all-in", their incentives weren't aligned with Remington. They made a profit or at least came out even, but in the process screwed the rest of the investors and the employees.

Financially smart? For the private equity company, yes. But for everybody else, no. And that's why they have a bad name and come off as the bogeyman. "The target company management just F'd up"? Once Cerebrus bought them, they were in control. I'll admit I'm not versed in the fine details, but if they set up an independent management team, it was saddled with higher debt than they started with and put in a near impossible position with a major investor who only had one foot in the pool.

 

[mensajd]

The acquirer in this case didn't put their own money fully on the line; they weren't "all-in". They loaded the company down with an additional $200M in a leveraged buy-out. They got their money out of this and aren't taking a loss in the bankruptcy, and that's the problem. They weren't "all-in", their incentives weren't aligned with Remington. They made a profit or at least came out even, but in the process screwed the rest of the investors and the employees.

Financially smart? For the private equity company, yes. But for everybody else, no. And that's why they have a bad name and come off as the bogeyman. "The target company management just F'd up"? Once Cerebrus bought them, they were in control. I'll admit I'm not versed in the fine details, but if they set up an independent management team, it was saddled with higher debt than they started with and put in a near impossible position with a major investor who only had one foot in the pool.

Show me the financials where Cerberus wins on the Remington bet. They played, they lost, sort of game over for now.

 

[TC260]

that’s exactly my point. If they pimped the .260 hard enough and supported it with an abundance of ammo options and twists then the 6.5CM would be mute. The .260 Rem would have been king. But they abandoned it like they do all their designs.

It doesn't really matter but I was asking a dollars and cents question. How many more dollars does Remington make on a rifle chambered in 260 Remington vs another round that doesn't have their name on it?

If they make the same amount of money on a rifle or a box of ammo stamped 260 as 308 it may not make any difference to them financially whether the 260 is popular or not other than the advertising value of having their name on it.

 

[JimT]

Show me the financials where Cerberus wins on the Remington bet. They played, they lost, sort of game over for now.

Arguing with these guys is a losing proposition. They all confess to having trouble balancing their checkbook let alone understanding how private equity works. In fact, most just parrot the writings of the New York Times and Washington Post editorial page on all corporate dealings.

 

[JimT]

The acquirer in this case didn't put their own money fully on the line; they weren't "all-in". They loaded the company down with an additional $200M in a leveraged buy-out. They got their money out of this and aren't taking a loss in the bankruptcy, and that's the problem. They weren't "all-in", their incentives weren't aligned with Remington. They made a profit or at least came out even, but in the process screwed the rest of the investors and the employees.

Financially smart? For the private equity company, yes. But for everybody else, no. And that's why they have a bad name and come off as the bogeyman. "The target company management just F'd up"? Once Cerebrus bought them, they were in control. I'll admit I'm not versed in the fine details, but if they set up an independent management team, it was saddled with higher debt than they started with and put in a near impossible position with a major investor who only had one foot in the pool.

I am assuming this is the $200 million you are referring to.

https://www.spglobal.com/marketinte...n-deal-enabling-cerberus-partners-to-cash-out

Of course this is debt that was incurred after Sandy Hook to pay off investors that became uncomfortable owning gun related investments. Cerberus had no alternative since they could find no buyer for Remington.

As you will note, this additional debt had to be approved by the other Freedom Group lenders. In fact, all Freedom Group borrowings and dividends were approved by lenders who have financial acumen that appears to dwarf yours.

BTW, have you ever considered becoming a paying member of this forum?????

 

[Kracken McGraw]

May be more complicated than what meets the eye.

That just about sums it up. Vermin preying on others hard work just to make a buck, and then using some of that money to pay off Congressmen so they can do it again.

 

[Twicepop]

It all started when they put the wrong twist in the .244...…………….

This is about the same time they brought out the .280 Remington, and failed on that launch also. The .280 has the opportunity to beat the pants off the .270 Winchester and a corporate decision doomed it to mediocrity. It was loaded to much lower pressure than it and the guns it was chambered in would reliably handle. The reason they gave was to keep the pressures lower for use in the fairly new Model 740 autoloader, however this gun was available in .270 WCF so their reasoning held no merit. What they did right on the .280 was they moved the shoulder .050" forward to keep it from chambering in any .270 WCF.