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A Different View

Some history on the lethality of the .223/5.56 round. If you are squimish, stop reading now. As a round to increase the amount of ammo that can be carried for a given weight, I tend to favor the 7.62x39 round, but the grunt on the ground doesn't have that choice, and in the beginning, when the M16 first was issued in Vietnam, the fact that the combat soldiers couldn't use hollowpoints didn't matter. The first years of the M16 saw a 55gr .223 FMJ round with a rifle barrel with a slow twist, one barely adequate, but sufficient, to stabilize the projectile in flight - might have been a twist rate of 1 in 14, but I can't remember for sure. Anyway, bullet flight was satisfactory for acceptable accuracy and it punched nice little round holes in vehicle doors, wood barriers, etc. HOWEVER, when it hit something soft and squishy, like a human body, it would tumble after penetration and you had this approximately 3/4" long object going through an enemy body sideways, doing more damage than you can believe, much more than an HP round. My service was waterborne, so I never saw it up close, but a grunt friend showed me photos of a row of more than a dozen bodies lined up at an after battle body count; each had been shot in one side or the other and the projectile had traversed the abdomen toward the other side. The hydraulic force generated caused the abdomen to split open and each body was lieing there with what remained of its insides spilling out over their lap. My friend assured me that this type of damage was the rule for shots entering between the waste and armpits. So what did the DoD do? They speeded up the twist rate so that the FMJ projectile that was marginly stable in flight but delivered acceptable accuracy no longer tumbled when traversing a human body, ending the one redeeming feature that gave the GI something tangible to make up for not having a .308 or a 30-06 any more.
 
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If this crap keeps up and you do have to do something, and now the cops don't come anymore! Who you going to call Ghost Busters?

Joe Salt
You are your own first line of defense anyway. Several years back we had a "situation" at about 1:30 in the wee hours of the morning. I called the Sheriff's office and it took about 45 minutes to get an officer out to the house, they had to drive from the far corner of the county to get to our place at the opposite corner. The threat of getting their young asses kicked and getting mauled by a 125 pound German Shepherd changed their minds about breaking into my shop and left before the Sheriff's Deputy got there.
 
For all the armchair quarterbacks and instructors, the most important question was not mentioned. Who is the DA? Whatever your level of training or just instinct to survive is only part of the equation. Even if it is within the law, it might not matter. Your life is going to suck like its never sucked before.

"Circuit Attorney Kimberly Gardner said her office was working with police to investigate, saying she was alarmed because “peaceful protesters were met by guns and a violent assault.”

If/when I'm in the middle of a confrontation with someone intending to do me or mine harm, the last thing I'm going to think about is who the DA is or their views on deadly force. If I'm following national standards for the use of force, I'm not giving two whoops and a holler if Hillary Clinton herself is the DA. (Well maybe not her, but you get my drift) ;)
Simply put, I'l be alive to be tried by 12 before I'm carried by 6.

Lloyd
 
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you must be able to discern...this was staged as many things on MSM are..they only show 1 camera angle if the camera was back 500 ft you would see only a few people staged it's a psyop
 
If/when I'm in the middle of a confrontation with someone intending to me or mine harm, the last thing I'm going to think about is who the DA is or their views on deadly force. If I'm following national standards for the use of force, i'm not giving two whoops and a holler if Hillary Clinton herself is the DA. (Well maybe not her, but you get my drift) ;)
Simply put, I'l be alive to be tried by 12 before I'm carried by 6.

Lloyd

I think you took it wrong, not saying don't defend yourself, just have a little basic knowledge of who will be investigating you and don't give them a reason to charge you, especially if you are a lawyer as in this case. After your 30 yrs instructing you of all people sure as hell have seen and know what its like to be called as an expert and watch a good person get hosed on a minor issue that could have been avoided

"i'm not giving two whoops and a holler if Hillary Clinton herself is the DA. (Well maybe not her, but you get my drift) ;)" Yes I do, and this one is twice as bad!!!


.....Just curious, what do you think will happen to these two?
 
I think you took it wrong, not saying don't defend yourself, just have a little basic knowledge of who will be investigating you and don't give them a reason to charge you, especially if you are a lawyer as in this case. After your 30 yrs instructing you of all people sure as hell have seen and know what its like to be called as an expert and watch a good person get hosed on a minor issue that could have been avoided

"i'm not giving two whoops and a holler if Hillary Clinton herself is the DA. (Well maybe not her, but you get my drift) ;)" Yes I do, and this one is twice as bad!!!


.....Just curious, what do you think will happen to these two?

I agree 100%. EVERYONE needs to read Andrew Branca's book: "The Law of Self Defense". It is a quick and easy read. There is a LOT of misunderstanding among us normal folks (non attorneys) about how the legal system works. Protecting yourself legally doesn't means you can't protect yourself physically, but you need to be informed.

The number one rule is NEVER be the aggressor. This means if someone pushes you down and walks away, and then you pull your gun and shoot them, you are the aggressor. Don't take my word for it READ THE BOOK.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/1943809143/?tag=accuratescom-20

https://lawofselfdefense.com/
 
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I think you took it wrong, not saying don't defend yourself, just have a little basic knowledge of who will be investigating you and don't give them a reason to charge you, especially if you are a lawyer as in this case. After your 30 yrs instructing you of all people sure as hell have seen and know what its like to be called as an expert and watch a good person get hosed on a minor issue that could have been avoided

"i'm not giving two whoops and a holler if Hillary Clinton herself is the DA. (Well maybe not her, but you get my drift) ;)" Yes I do, and this one is twice as bad!!!


.....Just curious, what do you think will happen to these two?
@Drop Port,

I took your statement to mean my decision as to what level I protect myself is influenced by who the DA is. Is that correct?

Yes, I have been an expert witness a couple of times. The law is clear. If a person acted as any other reasonable person would have acted in the same or similar set of circumstances, then a defence attorney has a smooth road ahead of him, assuming it even gets that far. Meaning in a worse case scenario, you shoot someone in your house that is armed. I can only speak for the laws in Ohio but most likely you will be charged and released on your own recognizance.
The grand jury will review the facts of the case and return a "no bill" or a failure to indict.
Now is when it can get ugly. Even though you were cleared criminally, the dead guys 5 baby mommas can still sue you. I personally know of two cases where this happened. One went on over four years, the other over 10.
Both individuals were cleared of any wrong doing, but the stress on them and their family was horrible.
To answer your last question as to what may happen to the couple, again I can only speak about Ohio law.
If they are charged at all, it would be brandishing a firearm in public or inciting to panic. Both are misdemeanors and given the circumstances neither of them would hold much water.
With that said, I'll take a misdemeanor charge over what may have happened to that couple if they hadn't responded the way they did.
I hope this helps,

Lloyd
 
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There are a couple of points here worth considering, Yes each state is different in what it see's as aggressive behavior. In California at one time it was taking three steps forward clearly showing intent to do harm to the person you were confronting. It also comes down to the DA wanting to use that office as a stepping stone to higher office. That is on display right now by one political party.

The stupidity of waving a firearm in public will get you a court date in most any state and it should. That is unless it simply gets you dead for being an idiot.
 
@Drop Port,

The law is clear. If a person acted as any other person would have acted in the same or similar set of circumstances, then a defence attorney has a smooth road ahead of him, assuming it even gets that far.

Lloyd

Branca says there are five elements of self defense law. The info below is from his book and website. https://lawofselfdefense.com/


Innocence: Don't start the fight. If you are the initial physical aggressor, use of force is not justified. Also, if the person physically aggressing against you backs down, that confrontation is over. If you use force after the initial aggressor backs down, then you become the aggressor.

Imminence: Attack in progress. Must be happening or about to happen. A completed threat or a speculative future threat doesn't count

Avoidance: Run if you can. Some states have a legal duty to retreat. It's always a smart choice if you have that option

Proportionality: Right tool right job. Deadly force can only be used to counter a deadly force threat

Reasonableness: Good decisions under the circumstances. What would "Reasonable Ralph" do in your circumstances.
 
Lot of "mis-information" floatin around here regarding the M-16 / AR-15 and it's lethality . I received two ( 2 ) rounds from a M-16 in my lower left leg , while coming in "Hot" to a HOT LZ . The Victor Charles who tagged me thought he wasn't seen , and hid in the grass from where he fired . I came off the Huey as it landed , and limped toward where he fired from .He apparently heard , or saw me coming , and raised up to finish his handiwork . At that point ; I put three rounds in him from my "Liberated" SKS , I had acquired a couple months earlier . His weapon was obtained through the back door of the supply depot in Qhin Nhon a couple weeks earlier . Someone commented on their preference for a 7.62 x 39 over a 5.56 , and in my personal experience , I'll take the AK /SK over the high-powered B.B. gun any day . If "Charles" had been holding a AK/SKS , I might still be here , but I'd be a one-legged man . He had a 5.56 , and he's DEAD ! I had a .30 cal , and I'm tellin the story .... Nuff said .
 
First, a disclaimer; for many years I was a certified instructor in the use of firearms for self defense; that probably colors my view in this case. We'll let Chris Cuomo on CNN make stupid (and incorrect) statements about the legality and morality of the situation. What I am talking about is the photo of the MO couple that confronted the mob that broke through a locked steel gate and stormed down a private road toward these peoples' house, and threatened them, their house and their dog. The photo shows the two of them confronting the mob with firearms to stop them. The first thing that struck me about the photo is that the two armed people do not appear to have much idea about bow to handle/present a firearm in that situation, especially the wife; my thought is that while they are using their firearms in a legal manner, they sure have never had any instruction in proper handling of firearms in a pressure situation. I worry, with the huge increase in firearms sales, especially in the last month (and I love any surge in firearms ownership - more people on "our side") that many people that buy a firearm purely for self defense do not have, and don't get, proper instruction in the safe handling and use of firearms, especially in situations where they may have to use them in self defense; from the photo I've seen, these two seem like two such people. Am I off base here with my photo based observation? Just being too picky?
sir you are correct. horrible weapon handling. Castle law - guess it will play well here. Seems needlessly aggressive. Hard to say, not being there firsthand.
 
The biggest thing I noticed about their lack of training is nobody seemed to give a shit how they were holding the weapons, it was the fact they were out there with weapons that was the attention grabber. You may also notice, nobody ran up to try and take one away from them, so there gun handling may not have been up to military standards, but it was a high enough standard nobody wanted to try them out.

I agree, the look was not the best, but in this case it had the desired effect.
 

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