• This Forum is for adults 18 years of age or over. By continuing to use this Forum you are confirming that you are 18 or older. No content shall be viewed by any person under 18 in California.

223 FTR Barrel Length

Hi Folks,

I'm putting together my first 223 FTR rifle and am wondering about barrel length.

The 7 Twist heavy palma blank I have will finish as long as 32 inches, which will put me within a 2-3 ounces of the weight limit.

Is there anything to be gained by going as long as 32" or should I finish it say, 30" and use the extra weight to fit a tuner?

Projectiles I am looking at are the new 85.5gr, 90 VLD and 90gr A-Tip (if I can find a buyer for my kidney)!

Thanks y'all
 
I limit my 30” 1:8 223AI to 300 yards, and maybe 600 on a good day using 80.5 Berger’s. I should have gone for a 1:7 twist, to take advantage of the newer bullets, but at the time a select few 90’s were available and the jury was still out on what they needed to be fed. So, I “settled” on the 80.5 Berger’s.

Although the AI puts me in the open class, I can toss the 80.5’s at 3050 without much issue and they are tack drivers. So, I guess I settled for an accurate rifle and load without any real recoil that’s a ball to shoot.
 
I was told by a barrel manufacturer the .223 reaches its max velocity at 28". I still chose to go with a 30" for the added weight.
 
Barrel length for max velocity varies with load, you can't say it's always 28".

For an FTR gun, you are talking heavy bullets. Not just heavy, but 88s or 90s. So, full 7 twist (check) and adequate freebore.

Honestly, the right freebore spec depends on how much jump you want and what you define to be "optimal" seating. I think the ISSF reamer Dave Kiff came up with is super popular for a reason (0.169" freebore). Don't be afraid to go longer. I believe Bob Gill was running 0.220 or so in his rifle and did VERY well.

I'm experimenting with my .090 freebore to see just how limiting it is. No verdict yet. Got 2750 with 88s and acceptable pressures in 26" CBI.
 
I was told by a barrel manufacturer the .223 reaches its max velocity at 28". I still chose to go with a 30" for the added weight.

This is not correct and I might suggest switching to a different barrel manufacturer, or at the very least, get information from someone else within the facility that knows what they are talking about. You made a wise choice going with the 30" barrel, hopefully it is working out well for you.

To the OP: a 30" barrel for a .223 Rem F-TR rifle is more than sufficient. The most important thing a longer barrel might buy you is to achieve the same velocity at a little less pressure. However, the trade off for decreased pressure is increased friction where the bullet is engraved by the rifling and greater risk of bullet jacket failure. With an even shorter barrel (i.e. 28" or less), you have to run even higher pressure to hit specific accuracy nodes with the 80 to 90 gr heavy 0.224" bullets. Poor brass life is often a problem with a 30" barrel, that would only get worse with the shorter barrel, forcing you to adjust the load accordingly. Ultimately, there are no specifications set in stone for this purpose, only a range of things to try and see how they work for you. Fortunately, there is quite a bit of expertise here at the forum with regard to people that have successfully used .223 Rem with heavy bullets in F-TR and other types of competition.

I have two 30"-barreled .223 Rem F-TR rifles. I recently had a couple barrels chambered for the original of the two using the 223 Rem ISSF reamer from PTG, which cuts 0.169" freebore. IMO - this freebore is way too short if you intend to exclusively shoot the 90s. It shoots extremely well, below is a 3-shot group I shot yesterday at 114 yd while doing some seating depth testing. However, a rifle will certainly be running higher pressure at a given velocity loading 90s with the shorter 0.169" freebore. As far as using a tuner, I went that route on my 2nd rifle, but not the first. As you can see, you don't need a tuner to shoot very tiny groups with a properly-tuned .223 Rem. My .223s always shoot like this with properly-tuned loads using the 90 VLDs, tuner or not. Although it can be argued that a tuner will increased the width of the optimal window, I have not personally found one to be much of an advantage in a .223 with 90 VLDs for use in F-TR. A tuner is extra weight and also a lot of extra work. I also have a tuner on a .308, and that combination seems to be of more benefit. The .223 Rem shoots so well in my hands, I just don't see a huge benefit to putting a tuner on it.

C-IV Seating Depth .024" off 6-3-20.jpg

My 2nd rifle has 0.220" freebore, and I could have even gone a tick longer and still loaded the 90s easily. If you intend to shoot a lot of the 88 ELDMs or 90 A-Tips, I would suggest that you go with at least 0.220" freebore; those bullets have very long bearing surfaces. When going with a freebore that long, you might run into issues seating the 85.5s optimally in the same chamber, not 100% sure as I don't shoot those. As an example, in a chamber cut with the 223 Rem ISSF reamer that has 0.169" freebore, you can still load the Berger 80.5 Fullbore bullet without having to jump it a country mile. If you're going to have a chamber cut specifically for the Hornady heavy (long) .224" bullets, you will want to also consider the bullet with the shortest bearing surface you might want to use, then see if you can't come up with a freebore length that will work with everything. You have at least half the length of a .223 rem case neck to play with (~0.100" or so), so deciding on an optimal freebore that will accommodate a variety of different heavy bullets should be achievable.

Take your time, figure out exactly what you want to do, and you'll end up with a rifle setup that can accommodate several of the heavy .224" bullets, which should easily make weight and work very well for you in F-TR.
 
Last edited:
This is not correct and I might suggest switching to a different barrel manufacturer, or at the very least, get information from someone else within the facility that knows what they are talking about. You made a wise choice going with the 30" barrel, hopefully it is working out well for you.

To the OP: a 30" barrel for a .223 Rem F-TR rifle is more than sufficient. The most important thing a longer barrel might buy you is to achieve the same velocity at a little less pressure. However, the trade off for decreased pressure is increased friction where the bullet is engraved by the rifling and greater risk of bullet jacket failure. With an even shorter barrel (i.e. 28" or less), you have to run even higher pressure to hit specific accuracy nodes with the 80 to 90 gr heavy 0.224" bullets. Poor brass life is often a problem with a 30" barrel, that would only get worse with the shorter barrel, forcing you to adjust the load accordingly. Ultimately, there are no specifications set in stone for this purpose, only a range of things to try and see how they work for you. Fortunately, there is quite a bit of expertise here at the forum with regard to people that have successfully used .223 Rem with heavy bullets in F-TR and other types of competition.

I have two 30"-barreled .223 Rem F-TR rifles. I recently had a couple barrels chambered for the original of the two using the 223 Rem ISSF reamer from PTG, which cuts 0.169" freebore. IMO - this freebore is way too short if you intend to exclusively shoot the 90s. It shoots extremely well, below is a 3-shot group I shot yesterday at 114 yd while doing some seating depth testing. However, a rifle will certainly be running higher pressure at a given velocity loading 90s with the shorter 0.169" freebore. As far as using a tuner, I went that route on my 2nd rifle, but not the first. As you can see, you don't need a tuner to shoot very tiny groups with a properly-tuned .223 Rem. My .223s always shoot like this with properly-tuned loads using the 90 VLDs, tuner or not. Although it can be argued that a tuner will increased the width of the optimal window, I have not personally found one to be much of an advantage in a .223 with 90 VLDs for use in F-TR. A tuner is extra weight and also a lot of extra work. I also have a tuner on a .308, and that combination seems to be of more benefit. The .223 Rem shoots so well in my hands, I just don't see a huge benefit to putting a tuner on it.

View attachment 1183225

My 2nd rifle has 0.220" freebore, and I could have even gone a tick longer and still loaded the 90s easily. If you intend to shoot a lot of the 88 ELDMs or 90 A-Tips, I would suggest that you go with at least 0.220" freebore; those bullets have very long bearing surfaces. When going with a freebore that long, you might run into issues seating the 85.5s optimally in the same chamber, not 100% sure as I don't shoot those. As an example, in a chamber cut with the 223 Rem ISSF reamer that has 0.169" freebore, you can still load the Berger 80.5 Fullbore bullet without having to jump it a country mile. If you're going to have a chamber cut specifically for the Hornady heavy (long) .224" bullets, you will want to also consider the bullet with the shortest bearing surface you might want to use, then see if you can't come up with a freebore length that will work with everything. You have at least half the length of a .223 rem case neck to play with (~0.100" or so), so deciding on an optimal freebore that will accommodate a variety of different heavy bullets should be achievable.

Take your time, figure out exactly what you want to do, and you'll end up with a rifle setup that can accommodate several of the heavy .224" bullets, which should easily make weight and work very well for you in F-TR.

Thank you very much for the detailed reply. I read quite a few posts of yours before deciding on a barrel. I ended up with a 0.219/0.224 5r barrel in the hope that I can run hornadys and not blow them up. If the BC of the 88s is indeed as high as you believe them to be, then a 223 firing them without losing jackets should be quite the formidable combination, even beyond 600 yards. Failing that, 85.5gr and 90gr bergers will be no slouch either. With the cost of A-tips they won't be used regularly at a club level.

I think I'll finish this at 32" with 0.220" of freebore. If I have jacket sheddng problems, I will shorten the barrel. As others have stated, it's very easy to remove length, but impossible to add it.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Dub
Thank you very much for the detailed reply. I read quite a few posts of yours before deciding on a barrel. I and ended up with a 0.219/0.224 5r barrel in the hope that I can run hornadys and not blow them up. If the BC of the 88s is indeed as high as you believe them to be, then a 223 firing them without losing jackets should be quite the formidable combination, even beyond 600 yards. Failing that, 85.5gr and 90gr bergers will be no slouch either. With the cost of A-tips they won't be used regularly at a club level.

I think I'll finish this at 32" with 0.220" of freebore. If I have jacket sheddng problems, I will shorten the barrel. As others have stated, it's very easy to remove length, but impossible to add it.

That sounds like a very good plan. With a 32" pipe, you can reach OBT Node 4 with less pressure than with a 30". However, there could be a bit more friction/heating with the longer barrel. With any luck, that would be more than offset by going with the 0.219"/0.224" land/groove configuration. I would like to go that exact route myself, but haven't done so as yet. I still have some backup chambered barrels of a more routine configuration ready to go for both my .223s, which represent a fair amount of time and money. Let us know how this configuration works out for you with the 88s, especially. From the load workup I did with the 88s, I have a very favorable impression of that bullet. Unfortunately, the jacket failures out of the one rifle I have that is set up pretty well to shoot them were a deal-breaker. So until such time as I burn out the barrels I already have, I won't likely have an opportunity to try it. Good luck with it!
 
All three of my 223 are 31 “ heavy Palma I have no problem making FTR weight rem 700 actions and a Defiant action my first has a .148 free bore shooting 80.5 it’s a tack driver at 300 yards the other two I used a .169 reamer for 90’s after shooting out the throat in the Bartlin 5 R I reamed it to .225 using a PTG universal reamer and started shooting 95 smks It is still shooting sub moa at 300 / 600 .
By the way Ned Ludd got me going in the right direction with 223’s when he lived out in California and after he moved , he knows his stuff about 223’s he has a ton of experience with them
 
That sounds like a very good plan. With a 32" pipe, you can reach OBT Node 4 with less pressure than with a 30". However, there could be a bit more friction/heating with the longer barrel. With any luck, that would be more than offset by going with the 0.219"/0.224" land/groove configuration. I would like to go that exact route myself, but haven't done so as yet. I still have some backup chambered barrels of a more routine configuration ready to go for both my .223s, which represent a fair amount of time and money. Let us know how this configuration works out for you with the 88s, especially. From the load workup I did with the 88s, I have a very favorable impression of that bullet. Unfortunately, the jacket failures out of the one rifle I have that is set up pretty well to shoot them were a deal-breaker. So until such time as I burn out the barrels I already have, I won't likely have an opportunity to try it. Good luck with it!

The barrel that was the subject of my first post arrived at my home today fitted and chambered. I ended up with a 32" 5r bartlien 219/224. Unfortunately in order to optimise the throat for the 90 Atips (which I simply cannot afford to shoot on a weekly basis), my smith had to make the freebore long enough to not really work for the Berger 90 vld (only 0.050" of shank in the neck when seated to touch). This means I'm either shooting Atips, 88 ELD or an SMK of some persuasion.

Would you suggest moly costing the ELD's as a precautionary measure to help save the jackets?

I will start load development with the ELD this weekend. Do you have a suggested starting charge @Ned Ludd? Send me a PM if you'd prefer.

Another option in the mix would be the 95 SMK. Has anyone tried these in a 7 twist?
 
Last edited:
I shot the 95s in a 7 twist. I ran them at 2750 with a good dose of H4895. Probably close to .230fb. the bearing surface\boattail junction was half way up the neck. They worked well, even got a medal at Nationals with them at 300yds. I would probably start at 23grains and go up.
 
The barrel that was the subject of my first post arrived at my home today fitted and chambered. I ended up with a 32" 5r bartlien 219/224. Unfortunately in order to optimise the throat for the 90 Atips (which I simply cannot afford to shoot on a weekly basis), my smith had to make the freebore long enough to not really work for the Berger 90 vld (only 0.050" of shank in the neck when seated to touch). This means I'm either shooting Atips, 88 ELD or an SMK of some persuasion.

Would you suggest moly costing the ELD's as a precautionary measure to help save the jackets?

I will start load development with the ELD this weekend. Do you have a suggested starting charge @Ned Ludd? Send me a PM if you'd prefer.

Another option in the mix would be the 95 SMK. Has anyone tried these in a 7 twist?


A 32" barrel throated long ought to be about perfect for the 95s. I wouldn't necessarily conclude that I couldn't load the 90s until I had tried some dummy rounds. 0.050" shank may not sound like much, but at .002" to .0025" neck tension it might work. As far as moly coating, I would personally avoid it.
 
I just sorted 300 88 ELDM's in preparation for some load development this coming weekend. If they hold together, I'm expecting them to be quite good. Their dimensional consistency is better than the Berger 85.5s I have on hand.

Of the 300, 148 observed no measurable difference in base to ogive. 140 were 0.001" longer and 12 were 0.002" longer. Previous experience with 162 ELDM's gave me differences of up to 0.012", so this was a very pleasant surprise from a budget projectile.
 
Today I did my first round of load development with the 32" barrel and 88gr ELDM's. First step was to shoot a few rounds at different charges to calibrate my QL file for H4895 with labradar data.

Shot number one - Jacket failure! Not very encouraging. I persevered and the next 5 made it to target without incident. At this point I questioned whether I would bother continuing with the ELD, but figured "in for a penny in for pound". I hoped the failure may have been due to some residue from cleaning products, and this seemed to be the case as I had no other failures in the 70 or so rounds after that.

These are the results from the last 8 groups I shot at 200 yards. I have not played with seating depth and loaded these at "jam minus 20" using Eric Cortina's method. In reality, this load is still lightly jammed.

IMG-20200808-180913.jpg



While they are only 3 shot groups, they are also at 0.1gr intervals, so I consider them to have some statistical validity.

At this point I think I will load up at 24.0 and not bother playing with seating. 23.9-24.1 were all under 0.35" at 200 yards. Velocity at 24.0gr was 2820fps, average.

I'd caution anyone against replicating these charges as I have a ton of freebore and my lot of H4895 is somewhat slower than others I have used in the past.

Suffice to say, at this stage I am very pleased with the 88gr ELDM's in the 32" 7 twist 219/224 barrel. If they continue to hold together, my original idea of elds for local matches and A tips for when I travel should work out.
 
Last edited:
I have been shooting the 95SMK in a 223 with a 6.75 twist barrel. I have about 900 rounds down the tube and I had never lost a bullet. I cleaned it thoroughly before the last match and blew up the first bullet out next 74 rounds went without a hitch. Might be something to your idea of some cleaner left in the bore.
BTW if you want more speed in the 223 with the 88 eld try some Alliant 2000mr it is surprisingly fast I have not shot enough to say if it is as accurate a my Varget loads but I got 1/2 minute at 300 yards in less than ideal conditions so accuracy shows promise. Then again the speed might cause more bullet failures
 
The jacket failures also started for me right out of the gate with the 88 ELDMs. I also found them to be very consistent dimensionally. I'm surprised to hear you had a jacket failure with your 0.219"/0.224" barrel. In my case, it is a 30", 6.8-twist, 0.218"/0.224" 5R barrel, which has also created jacket issues with Berger 90 VLDs, so I wasn't shocked when it happened with the 88s. As heat/friction as the lands engrave is a known cause of jacket failures, it could be that your 32" barrel length may be a contributing factor. Let's hope in your case that the problem goes away as you fire-lap the barrel.

FWIW - in my 6.8-twist barrel, I found with 90 VLDs that if I run a couple or three patches wetted with Kroil, followed by three dry, through the barrel immediately upon finishing a 20+ shot string in an F-TR match, it seems to be less hard on the jackets. I've fired a few matches with it using this approach and haven't lost another jacket. I never tried it with the 88s because I haven't tried to use them in competition as yet. The Kroil in a hot barrel largely removes carbon and other particulate fouling, but not any copper. So the barrel isn't squeeky clean. I found my first sighting shot after the Kroil treatment to be just a tick slower and possibly a tiny bit low, but the second is spot on. So using this cleaning process between matches really doesn't negate the information imparted from the two sighting shots allowed at the beginning of each string of fire.
 
600 yard club shoot today. First shot after cleaning broke up mid air, again. While I went on to clean the target (albeit with a low centre count and many x's lost to vertical), I am unsure whether I will continue with the ELDM's.

My load obviously requires some refinement as my ES was 30 for 20 shots. Does anyone have any pointers for that? My brass is weight sorted, flash holes uniformed and my charges are weighed to the kernel. Perhaps there is a better primer to try than the Federal gold medal match I have been using? Perhaps xbr 8208 is worth trying?

If a clean barrel is enough to cause a jacket failure, I am obviously still on the ragged edge of what these bullets can handle and I'm not sure I'm comfortable regularly shooting there.

Berger 90 vld next?
 

Upgrades & Donations

This Forum's expenses are primarily paid by member contributions. You can upgrade your Forum membership in seconds. Gold and Silver members get unlimited FREE classifieds for one year. Gold members can upload custom avatars.


Click Upgrade Membership Button ABOVE to get Gold or Silver Status.

You can also donate any amount, large or small, with the button below. Include your Forum Name in the PayPal Notes field.


To DONATE by CHECK, or make a recurring donation, CLICK HERE to learn how.

Forum statistics

Threads
165,407
Messages
2,194,643
Members
78,873
Latest member
jimi123
Back
Top