Inconsistency

[INTJ]

You’re better then me. I screw up shots at the bench all the time.

Bart

I might screw up a tenth or so at 100 or 200 yds, but not the 1/2 moa errors I see most complain about.

Many many times I have tuned a flyer out of my groups. Often it occurs as the powder charge is increased and you can see consecutive groups where the so called "flyer" slowly comes in.

Now I make bad wind calls all the time in a LR BR match. But when developing loads at 200 yds I don't jerk the shot or shoot when I am not aimed where I want. The target I print for load development helps with that. So any fliers are a result of a load that needs further refining.

So I don't get how bench shooters, especially top tier bench shooters like @BartsBullets and @Jet, think they constantly screw up shots. I know how you guys shoot and simply do not believe that........

 

[JMayo]

The way it hits my shoulder will upset my rifle. I'm learning to have shoulder square to the butt or "away one goes"

 

[INTJ]

The way it his my shoulder will upset my rifle. I'm learning to have shoulder square to the butt or "away one goes"

Well, maybe I am just lucky and happened into a consistent bench technique. I wish I could also be lucky and happen into a consistent wind reading technique.......

 

[Ned Ludd]

I see people say that "they" caused the flyer. I am always puzzled by this. When shooting from a bench I never cause a flier. It's always the load at closer range, and at longer range its the load and/or conditions.

People that shoot from a bench only represent a portion of all shooters. There's also quite a few that shoot prone. When doing so, especially off of a bipod, it's really not all that difficult to put one out of a group with improper gun handling No one's perfect on every single shot. Even with the level of gun handling and control possible when shooting from a bench with a good heavy rest and proper rear bag setup, it's still possible to FF the trigger every once in a while. Nonetheless, if it's certain the flier was not due to shooter error, I agree that it greatly simplifies the process of troubleshooting.

 

[R.Morehouse]

I was at a seminar run by Jack Neary & what he said about the 5th (last) shot in your group during comp. or times of high concentration is that they tend to go high. I found this to be true, I think it is coming off of what I have come to know as a " Trusting Mind-Set" & back into a " Thinking Mind-Set". This is a sport psychology concept I have adopted into my shooting learned in a small quick read by Raymond Prior, PhD called " Bullseye Mind ". I read this small book and refer back to it often. If you find "nerves" for whatever reason coming into your last shot, try aiming a bit low and see how it goes. For me, it has been about 1/2 a bullet hole at 100yds.

Regards
Rick

 

[PopCharlie]

I almost always shoot at 100 yards from a bench. I shoot 3 shot groups for load development, 5 for load verification. I often get fliers in the 5 shot groups. Almost always it's my fault.
I usually push my shoulder into the shot. I will however, turn the shell upside down in the box. I then check it when I get back to my shop.
I can usually string together enough 5 shot groups to determine whether the load is a keeper.

 

[BartsBullets]

I might screw up a tenth or so at 100 or 200 yds, but not the 1/2 moa errors I see most complain about.

Many many times I have tuned a flyer out of my groups. Often it occurs as the powder charge is increased and you can see consecutive groups where the so called "flyer" slowly comes in.

Now I make bad wind calls all the time in a LR BR match. But when developing loads at 200 yds I don't jerk the shot or shoot when I am not aimed where I want. The target I print for load development helps with that. So any fliers are a result of a load that needs further refining.

So I don't get how bench shooters, especially top tier bench shooters like @BartsBullets and @Jet, think they constantly screw up shots. I know how you guys shoot and simply do not believe that........

Well it’s true! It’s very easy to pull a shot out of a group at 100 yards by a bullet hole and 1/2 inch at 200. You are a victim of it, you just don’t realize it. The keys to knowing is good follow through for each shot, knowing what the condition is, calling your shots, and knowing where your crosshairs were at when the gun breaks. This is one of the most valuable lessons that Tony Boyer taught me.

Bart

 

[Lucky Shooter]

Your collar might be too tight,

A. Weldy

 

[marchboom]

The fifth shot can definitely be the one that is the flyer, for various reasons. I solved that problem by shooting my fifth round first. Works every time.

 

[INTJ]

People that shoot from a bench only represent a portion of all shooters. There's also quite a few that shoot prone. When doing so, especially off of a bipod, it's really not all that difficult to put one out of a group with improper gun handling No one's perfect on every single shot. Even with the level of gun handling and control possible when shooting from a bench with a good heavy rest and proper rear bag setup, it's still possible to FF the trigger every once in a while. Nonetheless, if it's certain the flier was not due to shooter error, I agree that it greatly simplifies the process of troubleshooting.

Absolutely, and that is why I specified "when shooting from a bench."

 

[INTJ]

Well it’s true! It’s very easy to pull a shot out of a group at 100 yards by a bullet hole and 1/2 inch at 200. You are a victim of it, you just don’t realize it. The keys to knowing is good follow through for each shot, knowing what the condition is, calling your shots, and knowing where your crosshairs were at when the gun breaks. This is one of the most valuable lessons that Tony Boyer taught me.

Bart

If we are talking about an infrequent shot that is 1/4 moa or less out during BR load development at short range, then I can understand that. You shoot well too consistently for me to believe that it happens to you all the time.

I test a lot at 200 yds, double checking promising loads with repeated five-shot groups. When I get a group with an apparent flyer, subsequent testing almost always shows that the flyer wasn't really a flyer but just a true representation of the accuracy of the load. So I keep tuning and testing......

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

There are just lots of variables to this discussion. I think the bottom line is that if you shoot enough and with flags, you know when it's a load or tune induced flier or not, a big percentage of the time. That's so much of how we can call shots, in the first place. Whether it just didn't feel right or if you saw a switch at the last second..or whatever. There's also the shape of groups that can tell you a lot. If groups form in such a fashion that no wind condition can produce, it tells you it was tune or handling..for example. Sometimes ther's just no shortcut or replacement for time spent behind a rifle, to know what the target is telling you.

 

[BartsBullets]

If we are talking about an infrequent shot that is 1/4 moa or less out during BR load development at short range, then I can understand that. You shoot well too consistently for me to believe that it happens to you all the time.

I test a lot at 200 yds, double checking promising loads with repeated five-shot groups. When I get a group with an apparent flyer, subsequent testing almost always shows that the flyer wasn't really a flyer but just a true representation of the accuracy of the load. So I keep tuning and testing......

Some of the smallest groups I’ve ever shot were ones that I screwed up handling the gun on the first shot. I saw the Crosshairs move as I touched the trigger off. I called the shot. Verified that it went were I thought it should and held the next 4 shots and finished the group.

 

[INTJ]

Some of the smallest groups I’ve ever shot were ones that I screwed up handling the gun on the first shot. I saw the Crosshairs move as I touched the trigger off. I called the shot. Verified that it went were I thought it should and held the next 4 shots and finished the group.

Was that with a 17 lb LR BR gun or a lighter weight SR BR gun?

 

[Ccrider]

This is pretty interesting.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Some of the smallest groups I’ve ever shot were ones that I screwed up handling the gun on the first shot. I saw the Crosshairs move as I touched the trigger off. I called the shot. Verified that it went were I thought it should and held the next 4 shots and finished the group.

First shot is free in group.
Don't get mad...Just having a little fun!

 

[BartsBullets]

Was that with a 17 lb LR BR gun or a lighter weight SR BR gun?

That particular example was with a Short Range rifle. However I see the same thing with my 17 pound long range guns.

Bart

 

[INTJ]

That particular example was with a Short Range rifle. However I see the same thing with my 17 pound long range guns.

Bart

I would expect that the heavier the gun, the less likely of that kind of an error.

 

[INTJ]

First shot is free in group.
Don't get mad...Just having a little fun!

No shots are free, and I absolutely do NOT recommend calculating what each round costs. When we factor in the the gun, scope, components, fuel cost, lodging, etc., I am sure each shot costs more than we want to know......

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

No shots are free, and I absolutely do NOT recommend calculating what each round costs. When we factor in the the gun, scope, components, fuel cost, lodging, etc., I am sure each shot costs more than we want to know......

I'm with ya..don't calculate the cost of any hobby...just enjoy it.

But I was just picking on a group shooter, in fun. It's an old point of contention between group and score shooters, since the two games have been around.

Long range brings both disciplines together. We need more of that in short range, like the Tack Driver Showdown in SC, this fall.