service rifle load

[Jay Christopherson]

Shooting 80.5 Bergers. I've tried H4895 (topping out around 23.1, 2669) and Varget (23.5, 2650). I've been told I want to be around 2750, but frankly, there's no way I am getting that much powder into those cases. It's already quite compressed at -0.030" off the lands. I was also told to consider -.040" off, but there's no way that's happening at these charge weights.

So - what am I missing here? It shoots "OK" (testing off a bench) and so I'm not so much looking for a better load as wondering why I'm hearing these numbers from exceptionally good SR shooters (2750 fps, -0.040" off lands, etc...) and I can't reconcile the physical limits of the case at those numbers.

 

[LCazador]

Jay, personally I think there is a lot of BS circulating the internet regarding reloading period. I would not pay any attention. Do what works for your firearm. I had the same happen recently reloading for the 300 PRC. Incredible numbers that people were giving me for Berger 215 gr. target hybrids. One load was 5 grains over max and how he got that bullet to go that deep into the case and stay there is beyond me. Personally after reloading now for more than 60 years and never settling for nothing less than spectacular, I've learned to accept each firearm's potential. With age comes wisdom, with wisdom comes patience and with patience comes success.

 

[Rsadams]

Tac may get you there but I don't know about the accuracy.... If it's shooting good that's about all you can ask for....


Edit.... Yup Tacs data says it can get an 80gr smk to over 2900fps.... That's loaded to 5.56 specs but honestly their data is hot , sometimes it seems way to hot and I am not sure I would want to go that big.... Their loading data is available for free download from their website.... Once again though I have no idea what kind of accuracy you could expect....

 

[Hohn]

TAC is a bit faster burning than optimal for an 80gr bullet.

I'd say you can ignore any blanket recommendations that you have to be at a certain speed. A load that's 100fps slower but a half MOA tighter is a good tradeoff every time.

The most likely reason you're hearing these numbers from SR shooters is that they heard it from other SR shooters when they were starting out. There's a lot of monkey see, monkey do in HP shooting. That's not really a bad thing. If you see hardware that's proven, it can help you shortcut a path to success instead of having to reinvent the wheel.

But I think it's often taken way too far in HP shooting that you have to have a certain speed, or use a certain bullet or such. Can you compete with an 18" barrel against 20s? OF COURSE you can. you might give 40fps or so, but if that barrel is super accurate, you are easily recovering that deficit. Can you compete with a 75gr bullet against people using 80s or 90s? OF COURSE. But you might find yourself winning on a calm day and dropping more points on a windy one.

There are broad categorical statements that are true. But when the conventional wisdom gets super specific and says you have to do something within that category, I think it's OK to question it and pave your own way a little-- it's not reinventing the wheel.

Besides, if you want to win, it seems to me you can't just do what everyone else is. Copying their process, you'll have to outdo them at their own game. If you want to win, you have to do something differently to gain an advantage. Maybe you find a slow 90gr load that hammers but is only 2550fps. You run the numbers and it's competitive with a fast 80 so you run it. Go for it.

There's no formula. There's just you and what you want to do and what works for you. Lots of shooters end up frustrated that they do all the "right" things in terms of what powders and brass and bullets and don't get the success the advice seemed to assure.

Find what works for you and your barrel.

 

[LVLAaron]

AR-Comp. You want AR-Comp.

 

[mac86951]

20" barrel? 2550-2650 seems about right. I think the 2750 may be the "match" rifle guys with 24+.

Try N140 as well; bit you already know about temperature and pressures. H4895 didn't have the speed, but had the stability, so it's still what is recommend.

Of course you're single loading and using a 5.56 or Wylde chamber; what's you're COL?

 

[Bamban]

Jay,

Curious, what is the chamber on your SR barrel? Most shooters have the Wylde with 0.062 freebore length, and those who use 80 SMKs have their ammo COL centered around 2.465, seating depth, followed by tuning to determine final COL. Most who use H4895, Varget, and R15 usually run around 24 grains depending on what the barrel likes.

To quote one of the hard holders from IL on the same discussion on the NM atch Forum.
"A staple load in Illinois for a long time was the 80 SMK with 24.0 of Reloader 15 seated to 2.465 COAL. That seating would take you to the end of the life of the barrel.

Many trophies were won with that load. I would start somewhere around there."

For my personal rifles I run longer freebore length, longer ammo COL, therefore I run powder charge higher than most

Go out and shoot in a match with your load. Enjoy the matches, get some experience, you will figure out what it takes to be competitive on the long line.

Nez

 

[Bamban]

20" barrel? 2550-2650 seems about right. I think the 2750 may be the "match" rifle guys with 24+.

Try N140 as well; bit you already know about temperature and pressures. H4895 didn't have the speed, but had the stability, so it's still what is recommend.

Of course you're single loading and using a 5.56 or Wylde chamber; what's you're COL?

Service rifle can't be longer than 20 inches. Yes, lots of SR shooters run on the low end to mid 2700 fps. Even when I started SR in the 90s I ran in 2800 range with the 80 class bullets. I do not recommend that to anyone.

 

[Highpower-FClass]

Jay, for what it's worth I am shooting the Berger 80 VLDs at 2760 in my service rifle. This is with a fast lot of Varget, 24.3 grains seated to a COAL of 2.46, in LC brass.

I was able to do 2790 with 24.6 grains of Varget but the 24.3 shot better.

 

[Richard Coody]

Have you tried a long drop tube or a.little case vibration?

 

[Jay Christopherson]

20" barrel? 2550-2650 seems about right. I think the 2750 may be the "match" rifle guys with 24+.

Try N140 as well; bit you already know about temperature and pressures. H4895 didn't have the speed, but had the stability, so it's still what is recommend.

Of course you're single loading and using a 5.56 or Wylde chamber; what's you're COL?

2.370" to touch.

It's not that I'm worried about it, I'm just trying to figure out why my setup seems to be so different from what I am hearing. 2670 is perfectly fine for me and off the bench at 600 yards, it's half-moa so I'm happy enough with that. I can't shoot that well slung up anyhow, so the rifle is currently beyond ability to shoot to its capabilities. Which means I at least know those whacky off-call shots are me and likely not the rifle.

 

[Jay Christopherson]

Jay, for what it's worth I am shooting the Berger 80 VLDs at 2760 in my service rifle. This is with a fast lot of Varget, 24.3 grains seated to a COAL of 2.46, in LC brass.

I was able to do 2790 with 24.6 grains of Varget but the 24.3 shot better.

A COAL of 2.46 would be 0.090" into the lands on my chamber (.223 Wylde). What chamber are you running, just out of curiosity. Maybe my next barrel needs to run a different chamber. But that difference definitely would explain the why I'm seeing what I am seeing.

 

[dstoenner]

A COAL of 2.46 would be 0.090" into the lands on my chamber (.223 Wylde). What chamber are you running, just out of curiosity. Maybe my next barrel needs to run a different chamber. But that difference definitely would explain the why I'm seeing what I am seeing.

I just installed a new WOA barrel with a Wylde chamber. My measurements of the brand new chamber for the 80 SMK is 2.415 and for the 80.5 Berger is 2.375 to the lands with my Hornady gauge.

So I agree with you Jay about COAL for the 80.5.

My go to load used to be 24.0 Varget in LC cases with BR-4 primers with 80 SMK chasing the lands .020 off. My new go to load is all the same but 80.5 Bergers. Once I get this barrel broken in (when the range re-opens) I will get them chrono'd but I am in with the rest that it will be what it is and it isn't enough to worry about.

David

 

[Highpower-FClass]

A COAL of 2.46 would be 0.090" into the lands on my chamber (.223 Wylde). What chamber are you running, just out of curiosity. Maybe my next barrel needs to run a different chamber. But that difference definitely would explain the why I'm seeing what I am seeing.

It is an RRA national match upper that I bought used. I believe it is a Wylde chamber, I think that's all RRA advertises for their national match uppers. I just recently bought a second (new) RRA national match upper with a Wylde chamber and it has the same throat, i.e. Berger 80 VLDs seat at 2.480 when jammed into the lands.

I think there is a wide variety in actual freebore in Wylde chambers between different barrel makers. I bought a Shilen 223 barrel with Wylde chamber for one of my bolt guns and it seats the 80 VLDs at 2.400 to the lands, so 80 thousands shorter than the RRA 'Wylde' chamber. If I was to guess the Shilen freebore is closer to the actual Wylde specs than the freebore in my RRA uppers.

 

[Fast14riot]

Try 23.2gr of 8208 and seat the Bergers .020 off. Should get you 2700-2750 and a reasonable SD.

 

[Hohn]

AR-Comp. You want AR-Comp.

Can't disagree there. I'm down to half a pound and wish I'd bought a couple kegs. It's temp stable, super dense, and good low SDs. It's everything RL15 wishes it was (only a bit of FPS penalty worth paying).

I'll be very happy when I can get some Alliant powders again. 8208 seems to be as good (but not as high on MV).

 

[Hohn]

It is an RRA national match upper that I bought used. I believe it is a Wylde chamber, I think that's all RRA advertises for their national match uppers. I just recently bought a second (new) RRA national match upper with a Wylde chamber and it has the same throat, i.e. Berger 80 VLDs seat at 2.480 when jammed into the lands.

I think there is a wide variety in actual freebore in Wylde chambers between different barrel makers. I bought a Shilen 223 barrel with Wylde chamber for one of my bolt guns and it seats the 80 VLDs at 2.400 to the lands, so 80 thousands shorter than the RRA 'Wylde' chamber. If I was to guess the Shilen freebore is closer to the actual Wylde specs than the freebore in my RRA uppers.

I true Wylde should have 0.068 freebore if I recall the reamer spec correctly. So it's a bit deeper than a Nato chamber. But my Daniel Defense upper can seat an 80 out to 2.52 before hitting the lands. So I'd expect a Wylde to be able to hit the 2.55 in the Sierra book, and if it can't than it's shorter than true Wylde I suspect.

The WOA Wyldes that my buddy has can run an 80 out past 2.50" He had to drop down from 24.5 of Varget to 24.2 though because the new WOA was showing pressure at 24.5 that the old RRA wasn't. His RRA had probably 4k rds down the tube, so I'm sure he had some longer throat due to erosion.

 

[Jay Christopherson]

I just installed a new WOA barrel with a Wylde chamber. My measurements of the brand new chamber for the 80 SMK is 2.415 and for the 80.5 Berger is 2.375 to the lands with my Hornady gauge.

So I agree with you Jay about COAL for the 80.5.

My go to load used to be 24.0 Varget in LC cases with BR-4 primers with 80 SMK chasing the lands .020 off. My new go to load is all the same but 80.5 Bergers. Once I get this barrel broken in (when the range re-opens) I will get them chrono'd but I am in with the rest that it will be what it is and it isn't enough to worry about.

David

Yeah, I'd love to see what you come up with in terms of seating depth and charge weight. I might be able to get 24.0 grains in there at -.020", but it'll be pretty dang tight for sure.

 

[memilanuk]

There's a reason some SR shooters started using Forster BR seaters, back when... because the stem on Redding Comp dies would eventually split under the repeated force of seating compressed loads of Varget, RE15 and H4895.

 

[Jay Christopherson]

There's a reason some SR shooters started using Forster BR seaters, back when... because the stem on Redding Comp dies would eventually split under the repeated force of seating compressed loads of Varget, RE15 and H4895.

that's a little frightening actually, lol. Maybe I don't want to be laying down next to these guys.