Scott parker, single kernel scales.

[Cecil S.]

Well I guess I'm the lucky 1 in all of this...
I was got my Parker tuned M5 in less than a week.
It was gifted to me from another member.
It sits right in front of my 1010 that's just as accurate.
I contemplated sending the 1010 out for tuning but there's really no need.

I got 2 10-10's from fleabay but have no base to compare them to. A good tuned scale is what I want to set my base.

 

[VaniB]

If you guys really want a sensitive beam scale, then you may be going about it all wrong. This is from my own personal experience. My experience was that I made sure to buy & have 5 scales on hand to compare them. Everything is relative, and without being able to compare scales against one another, it is difficult to know if you have the most sensitive and the most consistent. I started with an old 1970's 10-10 scale (which is a version of the M5) that I owned since the 1970's. I then bought an additional 4 used M5 scales. (ie; they are no longer made and you can only buy them used). I never knew how poor that 10-10 scale was for precision handloading that I had been using for so many years, until I compared it to other scales. The 10-10 is generally a good scale, but I happened to have a lemon.

Scott Parker will most likely improve your USA, 10-10 or M5 scale, (don't bother with China or Mexico made) but there is no guarantee that he will surely turn your scale into a precision marvel. This was the case with my old 10-10. For my precision shooting needs it went from mediocre consistency to "Ok" after Parker tuned it. (noticeable improvement, but not great)

So then over a couple of weeks of shopping, I proceeded to buy M-5 scales at Ebay and do a close study & comparison of them against each other. If it takes your buying 1, 2, 3, or 4 of them, then so be it. (just as I had done) Have them on hand at the same time, and compare them to find the scale that has the best single kernel sensitivity and consistency too. You then later sell what you don't need.

As stated, I first started off with my USA made 10-10 scale and sent it to Scott Parker. I got it back from him, and noticed an improvement but I wasn't so sure to what degree.(...because I had nothing to compare it to). So I proceeded to look for and buy 3 used M5 scales on Ebay and another 1 M5 on Gunbroker. This is how I determined that my Scott Parker 10-10 scale was improved but still did not compare to a fine working M5 scale. After much testing and comparison of the 5 scales, I kept the two most sensitive M5 scales and sold the other 3 scales including my 10-10. The 2 M5 scales I kept are capable of sensitivity to a single IMR3031 kernel, and even still somewhat sensitive to the even much smaller single kernel of RL7 powder. (it's more like a granule instead of a kernel). So now you're going to ask me, "Then you knew you that you were selling 3 other dud scales you didn't want to other people ?!!" And my answer to that is an emphatic "NO!! When I sold each of the other 3 scales, I divulged the full potential by showing photos of two IMR 3031 kernels, or three RL7 kernels that each of those 3 scales were still very capable of weighing. Those 3 scales were happily bought by others, and I never heard a complaint from those buyers or saw my scales being resold in classifieds again. The fact of the matter is that many handloaders do not seek or require that their scale is capable of single kernel sensitivity for their 45/70 or M4 rifles, or SigP365 pistol for range shooting. It is a relief for many buyers to see a demo photo of 2 kernels of IMR3031 powder by a seller and know that the scale they are buying from him is capable of that accuracy on a consistent basis and will surpass the buyer's demands for the style of reloading and shooting he intends do. So, when it's time for you to resell whatever scale(s) that don't suit you, just be open and honest about the capability of what you're offering, and somebody will happily want it and buy it from you quickly.

 

[justpassinthru]

When I started thinking my 10-10 I bought new around 1976 wasn't working as it should, I bought a new Redding. I never remember the RCBS working as well as this scale. Don't know if they all work like this one but it will easily weigh one kernel of H4350.
The only problem is that is doesn't have a cover, so I found a plastic food container to place over it when not in use.

 

[LC Tikka]

So what makes a good bean scale.
Why focus on the old units to this extent, one day they will all be gone or held onto as the treasurers they are to some and then what's next.
With all the tech available today, utilize the best points of the old and make a better product, its been done before.
Then we can all have one!!
LC

 

[1066]

I think it's really down to cost and fashion, in my opinion mechanical reloading scales reached their peak quite early on after the introduction of the magnetic damping system, probably with the introduction of the Lyman M5 in the 1970's. The later 10/10 didn't offer any improvements in accuracy or sensitivity, it used exactly the same knife edge/floating agate bearings and the same length of beam. It's unique selling point was the rotary poise and the approach to weight spring (also used on the 5-10.) Some find the rotary poise easier to use and maybe less chance of accidently moving the M5 poise by mistake, however the rotary poise also has it's problems too.
Almost from that time it's been a cost cutting exercise, trimming a penny here and there, almost unnoticed. Look at an old Redding No. 2, a good simple scale, twenty years ago they had a really nice engraved beam, then they switched to an applied tape - early 10/10's, 5-10's had a graduated scale on the zero plate, then it disappeared. Hornady/Pacific dropped there fine old "M" type and introduced a small cheap budget beam scale, RCBS transferred their production to China and Mexico and that just about sealed their fate.
In the meantime, many have been seduced by the Chargemaster type autoscales, they are quick and easy to use and give accuracy good enough for most, the electronics inside cost a fraction of manufacturing a good beam scale.
I know a good mechanical beam scale can be made, it's a question of would there be enough of a market to make it worthwhile gearing up for production to make it at a reasonable cost or to go down the hand crafted/expensive route. The heart of the much respected Prometheus is a good quality beam scale.
Here's a couple of my experimental musings:
This is an experimental beam for a M500 scale, it has replaceable razor knife edges, adjustable sensitivity, and an extended damper blade for use with an optical sensor.

A scratch built scale with replaceable knife edges.

​

 

[VaniB]

So what makes a good bean scale.
Why focus on the old units to this extent, one day they will all be gone or held onto as the treasurers they are to some and then what's next.
With all the tech available today, utilize the best points of the old and make a better product, its been done before.
Then we can all have one!!
LC

Yea, kumbaya, and let's all live in peace and love they brother too, while we're at it. lol. But until a manufacturer sets out to produce a beam scale that is as affordable and accurate as the old M5 , I recommend those serious handloaders who aren't capable of machining their own scale (like as in the photo above) continue to seek out the Lyman M5 scale on Ebay. Thankfully, there seems to be a generous and constant supply of them now on ebay even 40 years later.

 

[BoydAllen]

If you guys really want a sensitive beam scale, then you may be going about it all wrong. This is from my own personal experience. My experience was that I made sure to buy & have 5 scales on hand to compare them. Everything is relative, and without being able to compare scales against one another, it is difficult to know if you have the most sensitive and the most consistent. I started with an old 1970's 10-10 scale (which is a version of the M5) that I owned since the 1970's. I then bought an additional 4 used M5 scales. (ie; they are no longer made and you can only buy them used). I never knew how poor that 10-10 scale was for precision handloading that I had been using for so many years, until I compared it to other scales.

Scott Parker will most likely improve your USA, 10-10 or M5 scale, (don't bother with China or Mexico made) but there is no guarantee that he will surely turn your scale into a precision marvel. This was the case with my old 10-10. For my precision shooting needs it went from mediocre consistency to "Ok" after Parker tuned it. (noticeable improvement, but not great)

So then over a couple of weeks of shopping, I proceeded to buy M-5 scales at Ebay and do a close study & comparison of them against each other. If it takes your buying 1, 2, 3, or 4 of them, then so be it. (just as I had done) Have them on hand at the same time, and compare them to find the scale that has the best single kernel sensitivity and consistency too. You then later sell what you don't need.

In your work with used scales, did you do any knife edge sharpening. I have done that on every scale that I have worked with, with significant improvement in sensitivity. Also, it has been my experience that using a web cam to read a scale is a big improvement, both because of the magnification and the elimination of parallax issues.
As stated, I first started off with my USA made 10-10 scale and sent it to Scott Parker. I got it back from him, and noticed an improvement but I wasn't so sure to what degree.(...because I had nothing to compare it to). So I proceeded to look for and buy 3 used M5 scales on Ebay and another 1 M5 on Gunbroker. This is how I determined that my Scott Parker 10-10 scale was improved but still did not compare to a fine working M5 scale. After much testing and comparison of the 5 scales, I kept the two most sensitive M5 scales and sold the other 3 scales including my 10-10. The 2 M5 scales I kept are capable of sensitivity to a single IMR3031 kernel, and even still somewhat sensitive to the even much smaller single kernel of RL7 powder. (it's more like a granule instead of a kernel). So now you're going to ask me, "Then you knew you that you were selling 3 other dud scales you didn't want to other people ?!!" And my answer to that is an emphatic "NO!! When I sold each of the other 3 scales, I divulged the full potential by showing photos of two IMR 3031 kernels, or three RL7 kernels that each of those 3 scales were still very capable of weighing. Those 3 scales were happily bought by others, and I never heard a complaint from those buyers or saw my scales being resold in classifieds again. The fact of the matter is that many handloaders do not seek or require that their scale is capable of single kernel sensitivity for their 45/70 or M4 rifles, or SigP365 pistol for range shooting. It is a relief for many buyers to see a demo photo of 2 kernels of IMR3031 powder by a seller and know that the scale they are buying from him is capable of that accuracy on a consistent basis and will surpass the buyer's demands for the style of reloading and shooting he intends do. So, when it's time for you to resell whatever scale(s) that don't suit you, just be open and honest about the capability of what you're offering, and somebody will happily want it and buy it from you quickly.

 

[VaniB]

In your work with used scales, did you do any knife edge sharpening. I have done that on every scale that I have worked with, with significant improvement in sensitivity. Also, it has been my experience that using a web cam to read a scale is a big improvement, both because of the magnification and the elimination of parallax issues.

I had briefly experimented with carefully trying to sharpen the knife edges on my old 10-10 scale without any noticeable change. Because we are talking about a very precision instrument with which my knowledge and the workings of it was not my field of expertise, I backed off. (maybe the nylon "V" pads were also dull?) It was then that I decided instead to let a "pro" like Scott Parker work on it. As it turned out, even his experience provided minimal benefit with this particular 10-10 scale. It never provided the 1 kernel of IMR 3031 sensitivity.... as do my 2 current Lyman M5 scales do that I bought on Ebay. But, out of the 4 used M5 scales I had bought on Ebay, there wwere still some small variances among them. (I kept the best two out of the 4 scales.) The 3rd M5 scale that I sold was very close in accuracy, and the 4th scale was only "Ok" and similar to my Parker tuned 10-10 scale. (which was not great) Perhaps more experienced guys like you or Scott Parker would have had good results working on those 2 M5 scales that I sold. We've all seen the aftermath of "home gunsmithing" jobs performed with a Dremel. I didn't want to be one of those abortionists and ruin a decent working scale.

 

[BoydAllen]

I have worked on the knife edges of all of my scales, and seen significant improvements in the sensitivity of every one. The material that the edges rest on is not nylon, on the scales that Ohaus made, the bearings are agate stone. I do agree, that some people should never touch tools, not even a screwdriver.

 

[JFrank]

I think it's really down to cost and fashion, in my opinion mechanical reloading scales reached their peak quite early on after the introduction of the magnetic damping system, probably with the introduction of the Lyman M5 in the 1970's. The later 10/10 didn't offer any improvements in accuracy or sensitivity, it used exactly the same knife edge/floating agate bearings and the same length of beam. It's unique selling point was the rotary poise and the approach to weight spring (also used on the 5-10.) Some find the rotary poise easier to use and maybe less chance of accidently moving the M5 poise by mistake, however the rotary poise also has it's problems too.
Almost from that time it's been a cost cutting exercise, trimming a penny here and there, almost unnoticed. Look at an old Redding No. 2, a good simple scale, twenty years ago they had a really nice engraved beam, then they switched to an applied tape - early 10/10's, 5-10's had a graduated scale on the zero plate, then it disappeared. Hornady/Pacific dropped there fine old "M" type and introduced a small cheap budget beam scale, RCBS transferred their production to China and Mexico and that just about sealed their fate.
In the meantime, many have been seduced by the Chargemaster type autoscales, they are quick and easy to use and give accuracy good enough for most, the electronics inside cost a fraction of manufacturing a good beam scale.
I know a good mechanical beam scale can be made, it's a question of would there be enough of a market to make it worthwhile gearing up for production to make it at a reasonable cost or to go down the hand crafted/expensive route. The heart of the much respected Prometheus is a good quality beam scale.
Here's a couple of my experimental musings:
This is an experimental beam for a M500 scale, it has replaceable razor knife edges, adjustable sensitivity, and an extended damper blade for use with an optical sensor.

A scratch built scale with replaceable knife edges.

​

Very cool
Addendum- I like the M500 idea, creating a new beam looks interesting, care to share a couple additional photos..

 

[JFrank]

I have worked on the knife edges of all of my scales, and seen significant improvements in the sensitivity of every one. The material that the edges rest on is not nylon, on the scales that Ohaus made, the bearings are agate stone. I do agree, that some people should never touch tools, not even a screwdriver.

I like a fine stone with a lite touch of oil coupled with a steady rest and good light.
I’ll go with 6 passes each side of each blade then evaluate.
It’s certainly not the first step but ( hasn’t been ) the last step.

 

[VaniB]

I have worked on the knife edges of all of my scales, and seen significant improvements in the sensitivity of every one. The material that the edges rest on is not nylon, on the scales that Ohaus made, the bearings are agate stone. I do agree, that some people should never touch tools, not even a screwdriver.

Yes, my M5 scales definitely have gray stone "V" bearings. It's been a few years now since I had that old early 1970's 10-10 scale, so I can't check the bearings on it. But I clearly remember dull translucent nylon looking white bearings on it. All through the years I thought those bearings were nylon, and I touched them more then once. BUT, it never made sense to me why they would be a soft material like nylon. You could very well be right that what looked like nylon and I thought felt soft like it too was actually stone. That makes much more sense.

 

[1066]

Very cool
Addendum- I like the M500 idea, creating a new beam looks interesting, care to share a couple additional photos..

I can't seem to find many photos of that project. You'll see, it's not actually a scale, there's no graduated markings on the beam, you set it up using checkweights, once it's zeroed at the checkweight it will consistently repeat. It uses a miniature craft knife blade as a knife edge which can be replaced if necessary. It has a single point pan hanger system. The vertical threaded rod near the bearings is how you adjust sensitivity, unscrewing the knurled brass weight lowers the centre of gravity of the beam and makes it more stable and less sensitive. The small brass poise on the main beam has 50 grain increments and is screwed into it's locating hole so can't move once in place. The rotary poise has an anti backlash system and locks into place once set. The whole range is 0-350 grains. The magnetic damper blade extends out the back of the scale giving an extra couple of inches of effective beam length for use with an optical sensor as used on the Targetmaster or Omega auto-trickler. It also has an enhanced zero pointer for use with a camera system.

Here's a similar single point pan hanger system I made for a Dillon scale - this eliminates all the problems with the two point stirrup system.

 

[JFrank]

Well done indeed’
I love a good beam scale and now it seems an appropriate base is in order. Perhaps a custom wishbone of some kind with a nice leveling system.

 

[Dusty Stevens]

I think there is a real good market for a very nice prometheus type beam scale made from the ground up no matter what the cost- as long as the quality matches the price

 

[Erud]

I think there is a real good market for a very nice prometheus type beam scale made from the ground up no matter what the cost- as long as the quality matches the price

Then why don’t more people own a Prometheus?

 

[JFrank]

Then why don’t more people own a Prometheus?[/QUOTE
IMO it’s because not that many people have heard of Prometheus plus the $3500 ish price point

 

[Erud]

Well then it would seem that the “no matter what the cost” part of his comment is incorrect.

 

[JFrank]

IMO there is a $ limit, some people will do the at any cost thing but not me.
In addition- I have a one kernel scale and I really don’t believe one kernel can show on paper or at least I can’t shoot the difference.

 

[Dusty Stevens]

Well then it would seem that the “no matter what the cost” part of his comment is incorrect.

First off a lot of people got turned off by the “you dont own it” thing where you cant ever sell it (some are different now) and the other thing is a prometheus is not a beam scale. Its a powder dispenser that just happens to have a real nice beam in it. Take that beam out, make it less fragile so its portable, and thats what im talkin about