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New Precision Turret Press from Area 419.

My favorite line from the article:

“One of the big things right now in presses is, ‘Oh, everything's floats',” says Arnzen. “In our opinion that's a big cop out. We are in machining and we spend our lives looking at what's the most precise way we can do something. It will shock you that, in the machining world, nothing floats.”

Finally ;) !
 
My favorite line from the article:

“One of the big things right now in presses is, ‘Oh, everything's floats',” says Arnzen. “In our opinion that's a big cop out. We are in machining and we spend our lives looking at what's the most precise way we can do something. It will shock you that, in the machining world, nothing floats.”

Finally ;) !
Only problem is, theyll have to get the die mfrs to get on their bandwagon. Presses float because of dies- no because the press mfrs cant get it right.
 
I have mixed feelings about this. I love that they made the handle adjustable length (although if they wanted t get really anal, they should have put it in the middle). The primer catcher looks slick. The quality of the stuff they produce is solid, so I would expect nothing less here. I like the innovation and attention to detail. And it just looks nice.

But...

I totally disagree with the philosophy that floating things is a cop out. It's not. It's good engineering. Why would you constrain something that doesn't need to be constrained? That is how you introduce unwanted stress into a system. You can minimize (but not eliminate) that by making everything ultra-precise, but all you've done is made something worse (because you can't make everything perfect), and that costs 10x as much. Soemtimes you need to for one reason or another. But there is no need to locate a die within .0005". This is how you wind up with a $1200 press.
 
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But there is no need to locate a die within .0005". This is how you wind up with a $1200 press.
I can’t afford dies and shell holders accurate enough to make this useful. In reality I would prefer a system that allows me to mount imperfect dies and shell holders into perfect alignment. Between this option and floating, I think floating is closer to that ideal.

We’re talking “subatomic” tolerances here (their words)!!

In the world of shooting and reloading, we can upgrade equipment either because it helps or because it’s one less possible variable to worry about. This seems to fall into the latter category.
 
I can’t afford dies and shell holders accurate enough to make this useful. In reality I would prefer a system that allows me to mount imperfect dies and shell holders into perfect alignment. Between this option and floating, I think floating is closer to that ideal.

We’re talking “subatomic” tolerances here (their words)!!

In the world of shooting and reloading, we can upgrade equipment either because it helps or because it’s one less possible variable to worry about. This seems to fall into the latter category.

Even if the tolerances are held very tightly, it's still better to float the dies. Did NASA lock the payload into the space shuttle? Nope. They let it float. They design it to float because that's the better option. I'm sure this is going to be a very nice press, but if they continue down the "nothing can float" road, they're going to run into problems.
 
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Even if the tolerances are held very tightly, it's still better to float the dies. Did NASA lock the payload into the space shuttle? Nope. They let it float. They design it to float because that's the better option. I'm sure this is going to be a very nice press, but if they continue down the "nothing can float" road, they're going to run into problems.

Mechanically, you have to be mindful of what features should drive alignment.

With a “floating” die, the squareness comes from pressing on the face of the shell holder and centering comes from the brass itself. Over constrained systems tend to bind, lock, and do weird things. I’m concerned that the brass will lose (be the thing that gives) when this happens.
 
For $1200.00, I would argue that unless you are in the top 1% of trigger pullers in the world, you would be better off spending your time behind a trigger with what you have. Point of diminishing returns I would say. I doubt the press is the biggest issue you have even if using a Lee Classic Cast.
 
For $1200.00, I would argue that unless you are in the top 1% of trigger pullers in the world, you would be better off spending your time behind a trigger with what you have. Point of diminishing returns I would say. I doubt the press is the biggest issue you have even if using a Lee Classic Cast.


Come on, this crowd has a $1800 neck turner, $1200 annealer, etc.....they will need this also
 
Precision of my press is way down the list. I just converted from a single stage, to a Dillon 750 with a Mark 7 auto drive and my seated bullets (all floating dies) are producing just as accurate rounds as my prior single stage process. I love my 419 products, but I am not sure what problem this press is marketed to solve...
 
I have mixed feelings about this. I love that they made the handle adjustable length (although if they wanted t get really anal, they should have put it in the middle). The primer catcher looks slick. The quality of the stuff they produce is solid, so I would expect nothing less here. I like the innovation and attention to detail. And it just looks nice.

But...

I totally disagree with the philosophy that floating things is a cop out. It's not. It's good engineering. Why would you constrain something that doesn't need to be constrained? That is how you introduce unwanted stress into a system. You can minimize (but not eliminate) that by making everything ultra-precise, but all you've done is made something worse (because you can't make everything perfect), and that costs 10x as much. Soemtimes you need to for one reason or another. But there is no need to locate a die within .0005". This is how you wind up with a $1200 press.

There are times when float is appropriate. Other times it really bad idea.

I will illustrate with an example from my professional experience leading a team of engineers in the development of high pressure common rail diesel fuel injection systems. These systems are required to precisely meter fuel to the milligram at pressures up to 2600 bar, while lasting 20,000+ hours. The materials and tolerances are state of the art. We’re talking mass produced parts with internal clearances of a tenth and a half. So managing dimensional variation is within my professional competency.

Float is a double edged sword. It saves you or it kills you. Consider the case of mounting a hydraulic accumulator to a modern Diesel engine. The plumbing to and from it is entirely rigid steel lines of ultra premium specification, as the lines must have an infinite fatigue life while enduring a constant water hammer effect at frequency and pressures that triple the pressures at the deepest point in the ocean. (The marianas trench).

Because the plumbing is so highly stressed, you cannot induce additional stress in the lines by having the accumulator position vary by much. The first instinct is to have a tiny clearance of the mounting bolts in their holes to hold a tight true position error.

But this turns out to be a recipe for failure because you can’t control tightly enough the “stack up” of all the other parts; lines vary in length, and are fastened to parts that vary in true position while secured by brackets and clamps that induce their own true position error and associated assembly stress. You need to allow the position of the accumulator to “float” a bit to normalize the stress from the high variation in the other degrees of freedom in the system.

So you end up mounting your accumulator with large clearances between the mounting bolts and their flange holes so that it can “float.”

But then you face a head-scratcher: the measured stresses in the lines went up instead of down. But some went way up, some went down, some showed no change. Why?

It turns out that simply having float doesn’t solve your stress problem. You have to tighten those bolts last so that all the other degrees of freedom are constrained FIRST. Then the float will average the stresses. But tighten those bolts first and it exacerbates the stress problem it was supposed to help.

So float can help OR it can make things worse depending on the amount of variation elsewhere in the stack up and where the float occurs within it.

But is absolutely true that float is only even possibly beneficial when your other tolerances are insufficient (“sloppy” isn’t quite right, but it sort of is).

So if you can control the other tolerances but don’t and elect to use float instead, it is a cop out. But if you have an otherwise unsolvable problem, float is clever engineering.

As shooters we see this double-edged sword all the time. Arguments about bushing dies causing runout vs curing it by their “float.” Making dies “float” vs locking down via improved ways to mount them.

The biggest weakness in a press is the threads. Holding concentricity in threads is almost impossible. Threads inherently float, but in a way you can’t predict or control. Now, if these were ACME threads like on a lathe, the tolerances could be excellent. But they aren’t.

Fundamentally we are trying to keep a die and a Ram concentric. But the die is threaded, so we can’t. But if we lock the die down tight so it doesn’t move, the error is fixed and repeatable. And having a little float in the shell holder is all you need to allow for this.

This feature of my MEC press was important to me.

The Area 419 press is what happens when machinists turn engineer. Superb tolerances where they don’t matter.

The only tolerances that matter are in the ammo it produces— it remains to be seen if this press will be demonstrably better at all.

I suspect it may underperform.
 
"The Area 419 press is what happens when machinists turn engineer. Superb tolerances where they don’t matter."

I got a chuckle out of that... I've seen it both ways...

I was amazed by the number of my colleagues that could not perform the most basic of design tasks yet shared the same credential, and at the same time... I was amazed at the engineering and design prowess of those colleagues who had no credential and were some of the best in the world at their craft... I kept my opinions of them to myself, but in my own mind I had a low regard for my colleagues who claimed to be mechanical or electrical engineers and knew nothing about machining or soldering...

I tend to let the early adopters and YouTube vloggers have some time with this and it will all come out in the wash. The results will speak for themselves.
 
"We’re talking “subatomic” tolerances here (their words)!!"

If this is actually true you had better invest in a temperature and humidity controled room to insure it works year around.
Sorry to disappoint on this one, but the "subatomic" tolerance reference is some flowery intro language from the writer at Recoil, not (our words).

The press may not be for everyone. We built it to push the envelope on what's available, from both a function and feel standpoint. If you're pleased with the equipment you have, then by all means continue to enjoy and use it to great effect. That's what this is all about anyway. If you're interested in what else can be done, however, this may be for you. We've never been fans of "good enough" and have no plan to become that way.

Let me know what kind of questions you guys may have on the press! Happy to answer the best I can.
 
"The Area 419 press is what happens when machinists turn engineer. Superb tolerances where they don’t matter."

I got a chuckle out of that... I've seen it both ways...

I was amazed by the number of my colleagues that could not perform the most basic of design tasks yet shared the same credential, and at the same time... I was amazed at the engineering and design prowess of those colleagues who had no credential and were some of the best in the world at their craft... I kept my opinions of them to myself, but in my own mind I had a low regard for my colleagues who claimed to be mechanical or electrical engineers and knew nothing about machining or soldering...

I tend to let the early adopters and YouTube vloggers have some time with this and it will all come out in the wash. The results will speak for themselves.

I've seen it both ways myself. I've seen PhDs M/Es making really amateurish mistakes. And I've seen some of the most brilliant ideas come from the shop floor.

So when I say "machinists turn engineer", it's tongue in cheek for the most part. I will tell you this without question: would rather depend on engineering from a machinist than machining from an engineer. It's not even close.

And the best engineers always seem to know HOW something will be made and have a very clear machining/casting/stamping/forging/molding understanding. It's amazing how many (usually younger) engineers design things that can't be made or manufactured, or have no understanding of the practical limitations of the mfg process and how the engineer around it. They don't know things like when a casting makes sense vs a stamping vs CNC vs SMC vs fabricated, etc. It's a lot easier to teach theory to those with practical experience than it is to give practical experience to those who only know theory.

I'll never forget the colleague with an MSME who once asked "what's a camshaft?" in a meeting. Working for an engine company.o_O




I personally have had nothing but superior experience with the Area 419 products I have. And as when I was watching the intro, it totally nailed my nerd button. And I'd want one for those two reasons alone.


But I do retain a bit of skepticism that the whole might end up as less than the sum of the parts. And my budget doesn't quite extend to the target market here. I'm ok with that, and I'm sure they are too.

No matter, they WILL sell a crapload of them. It *is* innovative (like most of their stuff) and there's truly nothing else out there like it.
 
"Sorry to disappoint on this one, but the "subatomic" tolerance reference is some flowery intro language from the writer at Recoil, not (our words)."

Not disappointed at all, as a matter of fact you verified my initially thoughts that no one involved in designing or producing the press was involved in the "subatomic particle" verbiage. Thank you for verifying that.

Your products are top drawer, always have been and always will be. Good design work and execution of manufacturing will always have a market. There is nothing wrong in manufacturing the Rolex of loading presses!
 
If this press is so good the benchrest shooters (the real ones) will be using it. I just can't see spending $1200 for a press. What is the ROE?
 
I tend to let the early adopters and YouTube vloggers have some time with this and it will all come out in the wash. The results will speak for themselves.

The thing is - if the shell holder allows the case to float, the tolerances on everything else don't matter. If the shell holder locks the case in place, you had better have everything else *perfect*, or you're going to have a bad time. Threaded dies are a big limit to overcome, unless you design in some way to adjust their position (or modify them to remove the threads). You could have some fun trying to figure out how to make a shell holder with that kind of repeatability - I'm sure it could be done. There are lots of engineering challenges to make something like that work.

Ultimately, I think we'll see this work with floating shell holders like any other press. At that point, you have a press that's functionally equivalent to a standard cheap one, but with some nice features and workmanship. And there's value in that. I buy mitutoyo calipers that cost 10X what I can get at harbor freight, even though they both do the job well enough for my purposes. The mitutoyo's are just that much nicer. It looks like an impressive tool, I just think the "no float" philosophy isn't going to work out.

At the very least, I hope this pushes the other manufacturers to think a bit more about the usability of their presses. Lee does a good job on that (I really wish they'd make a high end line - Lee does solid engineering/design work, they just make everything so cheap.). Not so much for the others.
 
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