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Lapua brass life for 223 bolt action updated and edited

did a headspace measurement today. Virgin Lapua was 1.455". Once fired with the 23.8 gr of Varget load today measured 1.4565. The previously loaded and sized ammo that had the issue was 1.454 so clearly it was oversized. Waiting on my Whidden die before going further but plan to bump it .001 at this point. the 23.8 gr load of
varget shot really well so I will work from there.
 
Whether you bump the shoulder .001, .002, or whatever you choose, isn't as important as not bumping the shoulder back, at all, until the brass has reached zero headspace. Otherwise, it's just an arbitrary number.
 
Whether you bump the shoulder .001, .002, or whatever you choose, isn't as important as not bumping the shoulder back, at all, until the brass has reached zero headspace. Otherwise, it's just an arbitrary number.
so are you saying you would not bump it at all at this point?
 
I will strip the bolt and check the chambering
 
You need only enough headspace to chanber the case easily. Aboiut 20yrs. ago out of curiosity I measured headspace - distance from case head to neck/shoulder junction - on a bunch of .223 brass. Three (3) different headstamps, IMI, Lapua, and Winchester. There was .008" difference between the shortest of one headstamp and longest of another. They varied by up to about .004"/.005" and even Lapua wasn't immune to variation at around .003" or .004". And this wasn't an exhaustive test, just a handful of each brand. Think about that kind of variation. My curiosity was related to f the oft-repeated and commonly held gospel notion that an AI chamber should be cut with .004" crush. Obviously on many of those cases there'd be no crush at all. My 223AI guns are chambered with .015" crush, works beautifully and there's not much bolt pressure with that small case.
 
FWIW I’m using Lapua brass in my 223 bolt gun which is a stock Tikka T3x Varmint.

I’m running a fairly stout load of IMR 4320 behind 80 grain Sierra Matchkings.

I have around 1200 rounds through the rifle this far, all fired on the original 100 pieces of brass I purchased.

I have not trimmed yet, although I’d guess I may need to, primer pockets are still good. I’m full length sizing every firing, no annealing.

Gun is still shooting as good as normal at this point. Brass has been good.
 
define your full length sizing....less than .001 ??

FWIW I’m using Lapua brass in my 223 bolt gun which is a stock Tikka T3x Varmint.

I’m running a fairly stout load of IMR 4320 behind 80 grain Sierra Matchkings.

I have around 1200 rounds through the rifle this far, all fired on the original 100 pieces of brass I purchased.

I have not trimmed yet, although I’d guess I may need to, primer pockets are still good. I’m full length sizing every firing, no annealing.

Gun is still shooting as good as normal at this point. Brass has been good.
 
define your full length sizing....less than .001 ??

Couldn’t tell you. Bought the rifle as a play around gun and loaded it as such.

I set the die to give me a bolt close with no tension.

I’m not even sure what bushing I have in the die either but I know there’s not much tension on the necks.
 
Running your load through QL it says you're chamber pressure is 63,400 PSI and velocity will be around 3054 fps +/-

QL produces inaccurate results especially in such a low capacity case as 223 Rem unless fireformed case water capacity is used. QL's 28.80 gn default value is too low for Lapua brass even when it is run with heavy / high-pressure loadings in a 'minimum-SAAMI' chamber and will overstate fill-ratios, pressures and velocities. I can't find my notes from some years back when I shot 223 seriously in F/TR in Lapua cases, but 30.5gn water capacity in thinner / higher-capacity Winchester brass sticks in my memory after being fired in a Wylde form match chamber. The AS 223 Rem cartridge page gives 30.1 gn capacity for new (and therefore lower value than fireformed) Lapua brass. In a stock Remington 700, the actual fireform value will likely be a good step higher.

https://www.accurateshooter.com/cartridge-guides/223rem/

Redo your QL calculation with 30.1 and 30.5 gn values and you'll see a considerable PMax reduction, the latter bringing it into line with Hodgdon's maximum charge and chamber pressure. (Hodgdon uses Winchester brass in its data, this make having a higher capacity than Lapua. All other things being equal, if working off the Hodgdon data alone, I'd reduce their maximum VarGet charge by 0.5gn for the heavier Lapua case.)
 
FWIW - My Lapua .223 Rem brass Lots have typically come in between 30.8 and 31.1 gr measured case volume. As Laurie noted, it makes a big difference in predicted pressure when using QuickLoad. I'm not sure what kind of brass Neco/QuickLoad was modeling when they came up with their 28.8 gr preset case volume value, but I'd like to get my hands on some of it. I bet the primer pockets would last a long, long, long time. ;)
 
NECO is the SELLER in the usa.
it is actually a GERMAN PRODUCT.
but yes quickload is a tool and one must LEARN how to use the tool.
my pressure listed was on a more normal case volume.
FWIW - My Lapua .223 Rem brass Lots have typically come in between 30.8 and 31.1 gr measured case volume. As Laurie noted, it makes a big difference in predicted pressure when using QuickLoad. I'm not sure what kind of brass Neco/QuickLoad was modeling when they came up with their 28.8 gr preset case volume value, but I'd like to get my hands on some of it. I bet the primer pockets would last a long, long, long time. ;)
 
I do the stripped bolt method and never push the shoulder back until my brass has reached zero headspace.
That's the page I'm on these days. If I can chamber the round without yielding the brass as the bolt cams closed, I'm happy with a bit of negative headspace.

You know that up to 0.002" negative headspace falls within SAAMI specs, right? So even the lawyerly people seem ok with a bit of squish.
 
I will never understand why everyone wants to overload the 223 cartridge. for short ranges, Hodgdons book lists powder weights higher than necessary.

I shoot 80 gr Bergers at 2550 fps from a 1/8 twist barrel using 21.8 grs of Vargat. The only gun I have that shoots better is my 6PPC.
 
I will never understand why everyone wants to overload the 223 cartridge. for short ranges, Hodgdons book lists powder weights higher than necessary.

I shoot 80 gr Bergers at 2550 fps from a 1/8 twist barrel using 21.8 grs of Vargat. The only gun I have that shoots better is my 6PPC.

You've definitely got my attention, Nick. I ran your numbers through the Berger stability calc and they came in at 2.42. I was blown away!
Your load is just under the Hodgdon published starting load which flies in the face of all that advice I've read to "go faster". But as you say, close range has its own preferences.

I'm going to have to reset my thinking now. I've always been curious about loading to a lowest node, but in the process seemed to have fallen victim to the "faster is better" mindset.

Just when you think you have all the marbles, someone comes along and kicks your can....LOL
 
Your load is just under the Hodgdon published starting load which flies in the face of all that advice I've read to "go faster". But as you say, close range has its own preferences.

I'm going to have to reset my thinking now. I've always been curious about loading to a lowest node, but in the process seemed to have fallen victim to the "faster is better" mindset.

Faster may be better depending on range wind conditions, distances, competitive levels ... etc, etc, but always subject to having the requisite precision too. Winners ally great precision, great external ballistics and great shooting/wind-reading abilities. (Also having a great bank balance to afford replacement barrels, top quality bullets, brass frequently replaced. :) )

The shorter the distance, the more the balance tips toward precision if necessary at the expense of external ballistics - unless the range being shot over is on a seaside cliff top and sees 40 mph average winds with 30 mph pick-ups and let-offs. A low node can sometimes, maybe oftentimes, provide exceptional results at short distances, be easier to shoot consistently, and enhance barrel life. At one time, many handloaders turned out different loadings for different distances. I can remember being surprised by some of Handloader magazine's Ken Waters' 'Pet Loads' a generation or so back that were exceptionally light often involving heavy bullets, a fast burning powder, and low fill-ratios. 308 Win and 30-06 with 190gn match bullets, two-thirds full cases of H322, and low (2,200-2,300 fps) MVs for 200 yard matches for instance.

Nowadays most people prefer to get a best performing load for the most difficult conditions and use it for everything. If nothing else, it reduces the chances of mistakes in sight-settings, the handloading and ammo-box labelling processes and so on. (It used to be common in UK F/TR to load 155s and 210gn Berger LRBT loads in 308 Win for national league long-distance matches. If the weather forecast said light winds shoot the 155s that held elevations better; if windy take the 210s that reduced wind drift but produced a greater elevation spread. It usually worked out, but I have seen very capable people ruin a match by failing to be on the frame or even backstop at 1,000 yards with Sighter 1 and struggling to rezero. As a result, almost everybody uses a single load now for all matches over two-day fixtures even if they take two loadings.)

I can think of three examples of exceptional low-node performance over the last 10 or 15 years in my own rifles and shooting.

The first was an out of the box 308 Win FN Special Police Rifle (24-inch barrel), one of the first 10 to reach the UK and early in the new century. Initial 100 yard load development produced a genuine <0.1-inch 5-shot group at 100 off the bench with Sierra 175gn SMKs, but at some MV ~ 2,350 fps. Heavy, higher velocity loads never produced decent groups in this rifle, but I had some great 200 and 300 yard results with the light loads. (Even now with a heavy Bartlein 6.5 barrel on it, it doesn't like anything approaching high-pressure loads.)

Second up chronologically goes back to my '223 phase' nine or ten years ago. Whilst I had my long-range national comp level 223 shooting 90gn Berger VLDs at 2,910 fps, I also wanted to rebarrel a .204 Ruger factory Savage 12 LRVP RBLP single-shot with a fast-twist lighter-profile 223 match barrel for short to mid-range F/TR club comps. When I placed the barrel order, we didn't know what we do now about bullet stability and I went for a 1 in 7.5" pitch despite wanting to use 90s. It was also a relatively skinny 'Light Palma' profile. Bartlein was snowed under with orders at that time and delivery was slow especially for non-standard twists and profile combinations so it took 18 months, maybe two years to eventually turn up. By then I had big doubts about the project but went ahead anyway and it was chambered with the same reamer as rifle #1 that had around 0.200" FB for Berger 90gn VLDs. In theory it shouldn't have stabilised the since discontinued 90gn Berger BT with a 7.5 twist, but it shot them brilliantly over a modest Viht N150 load at 2,675 fps (28-inch barrel) despite everything beside the barrel being out of the box Savage 12 and H-S Precision bedding block sporter stock. I had some very good 200-600 yard F/TR results back in 2012 - albeit competition was much easier than now and my skills were undoubtedly better honed back then.

(That action and trigger then formed the basis of an exceptional 223 mid-range performer with another Bartlein, now 'Heavy Palma' 1 in 7", PT&G ISSF 0.169" FB chamber in a Gary Eliseo 'Competition Machine' S1 chassis stock and again doing best with 90gn Berger LRBTs (RIP). It still shoots well, albeit no longer for me.) (This stock:

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2008/12/eliseo-offers-s1-tubegun-kit-for-savage-actions/ )

My final example is another Savage 12 single-shot rig now in a British Dolphin Gun Co. chassis stock, originally built for F/TR in 308 around nine years ago, more recently rebarreled to 7mm-08 long-throat for F-Open with a fluted heavy profile 31-inch Bartlein. This rifle is mostly fed loads with 160gn TMKs, but early on I found it would consistently shoot at quarter-inch or better at 100 yards with the 150gn Lapua Scenar-L over Lovex SO-65 (Shooters World 'SW Long Rifle' in the US) at around 2,830 fps, a very modest MV for this bullet weight from 31-inches. This was my 300/500 and occasional 600 yard F-Class match load and it won me a lot of 1st to 3rd places especially at 300. (We'd abandoned 200 by then - the butts crews couldn't keep up with replacing target centres they got chewed up so fast.) This is pairs or trio-shooting on an upland range lying along a steep hillside exposed to the prevailing wind, moreover in a very windy region, so even at 300 'possibles' aren't common, winners usually scoring 98 or 99, but sometimes lower. This worked out great until the day came when the wind was 'harder' than usual and I was throughly beaten up by the guys with 284s, 7mm SAUMs, and WSMs. Since then I've stuck to the higher BC higher MV 160 TMK load at all distances, but should really take the 150 version too and decide on the day after evaluating conditions.

The 7mm-08 also illustrates another factor in our ever changing scene in precision disciplines - everything (and everybody too) is becoming more competent - better rifles and optics, better ammunition components and handloading skills, higher shooter proficiency and skill. But also, the widespread use of cartridges at short distances that would have raised eyebrows only three years ago - 284 Win is the norm now and many have upgunned here to the SAUMs and WSMs to get that last point that might have been a barely out 'leaker' in a lower velocity / lower BC bullet combination. A few years ago, it was mostly sixes and a few smaller 6.5s as people traded ballistics for precision and the ease of shooting low recoil numbers. Now people get both precision and ballistics in today's rifles and ammunition nad live with the recoil / rifle disturbance - ballistics and precision. In theory a decent 6-Dasher or 6.5X47L could still win, but on this range at any rate they rarely do and fewer and fewer competitors even attempt it. The floor has become the 6.5mm Creedmoor with heavy bullets and some very hot loads giving high MVs.

........... so just maybe the 'go faster' advice is right after all, at least in some circumstances. :) o_O
 
With a 30" barrel throated appropriately for 90 VLDs, many people are running the 90s over H4895 at ~2850 fps. However, there is also a very good node at ~2775 fps. The 2775 node is much easier on brass. The difference between the two loads in terms of windage is about 1" at 600 yd. That is not zero, but it is not a huge difference in performance, either. As Monte noted, people shooting .223s in F-TR also have to think about what the .308 shooters are doing. Is that 1" less wind deflection worth the price paid in terms of poor brass life? Only the person making the ammo and driving the rifle can make that call.
 
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With a 30" barrel throated appropriately for 90 VLDs, many people are running the 90s over H4895 at ~2850 fps. However, there is also a very good node at ~2775 fps. The 2775 node is much easier on brass. The difference between the two loads in terms of windage is about 1" at 600 yd. That is not zero, but it is not a huge difference in performance either. As Monte noted, people shooting .223s in F-TR also have to think about what the .308 shooters are doing. Is that 1" less wind deflection worth the price paid in terms of poor brass life? Only the person making the ammo and driving the rifle can make that call.

Ah, that's the $64,000 question and I've often agonised over the answer to this and related questions. In fact, my working areas are much polluted by ballistics program printouts with columns for alternative combinations handwritten alongside.

The 223 v 308 F/TR short to mid-range comparison is less often (in truth hardly ever) discussed here in the UK - discussion among practitioners is all 308 and around 185 Juggernaut v 200.20X with a few other bullet models thrown in. (Interesting though how many very competent people still choose 155s at up to 800 yards in reasonable conditions in tightly-fought club matches and can still win with them.)

I think it's a shame, but the 223 simply isn't regarded seriously. However, being a near certified nutcase and still fond of the 223 I now have an F-Open rifle in this chambering albeit only for 200-500 yards. If it weren't for Covid-19 I'd be running it in and developing loads for it right now. This is my original Savage 12 / McRees Precision stock job of the 2010-12 period. It always struggled to make F/TR weight even with a heavy Palma barrel, so I thought 'What the hell - let's put a 30" full F-Class profile barrel plus a tuner on and see what she'll do and it doesn't matter a tinker's cuss to me whether that weight puts it into F-Open these days.' I shoot most of my Open rifles off super-wide lightweight bipods anyway these days and with a 223 in a 22lb rifle I'm not going to feel much recoil or get a lot of movement! Bullet wise I'll use whatever makes the smallest 10-shot groups be it 77gn S and TMKs, various 80s / the 80.5, the 85.5 when it gets here and the two original Berger 90s - b*gg*r the BCs at 300 yards and MVs will be lower rather than higher too.
 
I've tried other brands of .223 Rem brass that had thicker webbing, but they weren't of the same quality/uniformity as Lapua and required more upfront effort to prep for competition. They definitely take the pressure of the 2850 load better, but I'm not convinced they shoot as consistently. Of course, there are other brands that have thicker webbing than Lapua that might be equally consistent that I haven't tried yet. In any event, I have always relied on Lapua brass for shooting in matches, and I run the 2850 node with H4895 and 90s. Having fired numerous rounds that were on, or just inside, the 10-ring (as I'm sure pretty much everyone shooting F-Class has done), I suspect running the higher node makes a difference, even if only a very small difference. A point or two is often enough to make the difference between winning and not winning. Nonetheless, it hurts every time I buy a new case of Lapua brass. ;)
 

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