Cream of Wheat forming question

[Ackman]

Yes to all the above we have them , I mostly have the marmots but do have some woodchucks. The local paper this morning said Asotin county was still zero on the
You know what I hope whoever has got it gets well.
Wayne

Nothing like gutpiling a fat chuck. They make a nice mess.

 

[INTJ]

Hey man what’s up with all the vertical!?....
I’m just kidding that’s nice!
Wayne

It did qualify as a screamer group but it is still three times the size of what Bart shot last year......

 

[bozo699]

It did qualify as a screamer group but it is still three times the size of what Bart shot last year......

My personal best is 10 shot 5” at 1000. I’m hoping to do better this year. I took a few years off so probably not! I don’t think I’ve ever shot that well at 600 but then I’ve never competed at 600. My hats off to you that’s nice shooting! Now I have shot under 5” but at my range in competition I have not.
Wayne

 

[INTJ]

My personal best is 10 shot 5” at 1000. I’m hoping to do better this year. I took a few years off so probably not! I don’t think I’ve ever shot that well at 600 but then I’ve never competed at 600. My hats off to you that’s nice shooting! Now I have shot under 5” but at my range in competition I have not.
Wayne

5" 10-shot groups at 1000 are excellent!

 

[Rick300]

If you're fireforming improved cases, why not send them to a service like DJ's? Zero barrel wear.

 

[bozo699]

5" 10-shot groups at 1000 are excellent!

Thank you sir!.... wished I was more on par with some of my friends over there, wayyyy smaller than mine but ya know I just enjoy being with like minded great people and away from work!
Wayne

 

[bozo699]

If you're fireforming improved cases, why not send them to a service like DJ's? Zero barrel wear.

You know I’ve considered using them. Prices are not bad at all.
Wayne

 

[sqrlgtr]

Gentlemen,I have thoroughly enjoyed this thread and see the pros and cons from both methods.Everything Im forming doesnt require a lot of brass relocation so just load up a normal bullet/powder combo and go shooting and have shot some small groups but dont have as much confidence in them till the brass has been fireformed lol.This is short range br stuff Im playing with though...

 

[Longtrain]

I've read many accounts of competitive shooters shooting in matches with bullets heavily jammed to (fire)form...

When I first got my Dasher, the smith recommended the false shoulder method and a bullet. I shot a number of 300 yard matches fire forming Dasher cases from 6BR’s.

The reason he recommended a false shoulder over just a jam was in his opinion, the firing pin impact would move the case forward, ever so slightly, and upon firing would force the case head against the bolt face, potentially stretching the case, weakening that area, which in time could lead to head separation. Whether correct or not, using the false shoulder method has allowed me to reload those cases over a dozen times and still going without a single case failure. Take it for what it is.

However, now it’s just the COW method, still with a false shoulder of course.

 

[Ackman]

When I first got my Dasher, the smith recommended the false shoulder method and a bullet. I shot a number of 300 yard matches fire forming Dasher cases from 6BR’s.

The reason he recommended a false shoulder over just a jam was in his opinion, the firing pin impact would move the case forward, ever so slightly, and upon firing would force the case head against the bolt face, potentially stretching the case, weakening that area, which in time could lead to head separation. Whether correct or not, using the false shoulder method has allowed me to reload those cases over a dozen times and still going without a single case failure. Take it for what it is.

However, now it’s just the COW method, still with a false shoulder of course.

I've always fireformed Ackleys with crush against the shoulder. Never any question about the case moving forward. I haven't yet tried jamming the bullets. Will soon have a 6BRX and may try both methods, false shoulder and jammed bullet and see which works best. These will be with relatively light bullets and not long ones

 

[micah76]

I regularly shoot a 375ct ai and fire form all my brass using retumbo and Sierra match kings loaded with a stout charge. I usually keep fifty to one hundred rounds loaded up and use them for sighters and fowlers, that keeps me stocked with plenty of ff brass handy. If i do happen to need a lot of brass quickly i usually just suck it up and go to the range in the morning when its coolest and use wet rags and a chamber cooling fan to keep my barrel cool and fire ten rounds and cool, then repeat until I get enough brass to compete with.

 

[SweaterDood]

Yes I've always used rifle powders to form AI cases. With bullets. I've posted several times about this. Don't understand why people screw around with fillers unless maybe they're just horny to make something go bang. But it's real simple, and I'm talking about IMPROVED cartridges. The improved chamber is larger than a std. chamber, so when firing a standard case in an Improved chamber the thing expands quite a bit. A max load for the std. case is a light load when shot in an improved chamber. Start with the accuracy load for the std. cartridge and do a load work up like with any other cartridge. Stop at the most accurate. And of course be watching for overpressure. The accuracy load will be somewhere between a max load for the std. chambering and what you'll be shooting with formed brass. That fireforming load will be faster than standard and just as accurate. So it's a working load that's faster and with the bonus of producing a perfectly/completely formed Improved case. A total win-win, there's no downside.

I approach the process similarly, and have been more than satisfied so far. Granted this is with only 1 example, but should be founded on logic (as opposed to false logic):

I start with a “hot” book max load, using one of the slowest powders listed (looking for a 98% or greater case fill). I make a general assumption of 40-50 fps faster than the parent case, and try to hit the recognized high velocity node for the parent cartridge. Since this is generally “pushing it” for the parent case, I find that it is a fairly comfortable spot for the improved chambering, pressure wise. I also use empirical information on bullet jump (or lack of) for these loads.

I typically take about 15-20 rounds at “book max” to break in the barrel and inspect cases /chamber. Another 15-20 to play with the charge from BM to BM+1.0gr. And a last 20-25 to tune seating depth. Once identified this gets noted as the FF load for the rifle and I will shoot the rest of the brass at this load for the first firing (~500pcs in my case). This is not the Hot Rod load or full potential of my cartridge, but has been holding minute of golf ball at 385yds consistently since ~120rds on the barrel. I wouldn’t and don’t hesitate to shoot for points with this load.

I then also work up a Hot Rod load (full power accuracy potential) and label those as such. Sure the POI changes and DOPE changes, but I don’t “decrease barrel life”. The first 500rds are just ~5-7% slower.

Note: this is for a fairly typical AI type improvement, I would not expect to see outstanding results with some kind of drastic chamber alteration.

Chris

 

[JFrank]

There was an post on hydra forming dies made by Widden in the Br page,

I don’t link sorry

 

[searcher]

For me it's not a matter of shooting up bullets. It's using up 200 rounds of barrel life and getting no useful info in return when it comes to forming for an AI competition rifle.

Yeah. I bought a used 6 Dasher barrel off a fellow on this site to fire form my cases. It turned out the fire forming barrel was more accurate than the one I was fire forming for. Seems one problem leads to another....... Hydroforming or a brass service sounds good to me. Running out of sacrificial barrels.

 

[Dusty Stevens]

Yeah. I bought a used 6 Dasher barrel off a fellow on this site to fire form my cases. It turned out the fire forming barrel was more accurate than the one I was fire forming for. Seems one problem leads to another....... Hydroforming or a brass service sounds good to me. Running out of sacrificial barrels.

My dasher fireform barrel has around 15,000rds on it. Couldnt tell you how good it shoots nor the last time it was cleaned

 

[Clark]

I built 4 rifles in Sept. I have no place to shoot in Seattle. In Oct I drove 900 miles to go hunting. I sighted in a 25 Krag Ackley with unformed cases and full pressure loads. I could hit the 1/2" bullseye at 200y. All the shoulders split during sight in. No chamber damage seen with automotive borescope in the small town.... When I shot a deer the shoulder did not split, it was 4 degrees and the CFE223 is a little temp sensitive. The other rifles were 7mmSTW, 250 Sav, and 6.5-06. They did not have case forming problems. The only Ackley I like is 280AI, because I can get Nosler brass.