Is there a bushing die that doesn’t kill concentricity?

[Hohn]

I’ve only been handloading for two years. Always FL size .223 and 6.5cm (Lee and Forster respectively). Interested in a bushing setup to better dial in neck tension on various brass; I don’t neck turn and don’t want to. I don’t shoot BR or f-o.

Redding “s” dies and the Forster bushing bump both appear to induce significant runout from what I’ve seen online.

Are the RCBS Matchmaster dies better? I don’t have the funds for WTC and am not interested in custom dies.

 

[Straightshooter1]

I’ve only been handloading for two years. Always FL size .223 and 6.5cm (Lee and Forster respectively). Interested in a bushing setup to better dial in neck tension on various brass; I don’t neck turn and don’t want to. I don’t shoot BR or f-o.

Redding “s” dies and the Forster bushing bump both appear to induce significant runout from what I’ve seen online.

Are the RCBS Matchmaster dies better? I don’t have the funds for WTC and am not interested in custom dies.

OK, so . . . no neck turning. Just keep in mind that you'll be dealing with the variation is neck thickness and how to manage it. With a bushing setup, the bushing is going to move variations into the inside of the neck effecting the bullet runout though having a good or not runout for the exterior of the neck. If using the expander mandrel method instead, the variation are moved to the outside reducing the bullet runout. The bullet runout is more important the that of the neck, huh?

 

[watercam]

I'm betting that most of those issues were because the bushing was not set up properly. If one reads the directions Redding recommends that 1) the bushing die size numbering should be installed in the DOWN position and 2) secure the bushing by snugging the decapping/bushing holder down and then backing it off 1/16 of a turn or so. I have been using "S" dies since their inception with terrific run-out results in multiple calibers.
One other technique that works wonders is to seat the bullet half way, lower the ram, then rotate the case 1/2 turn and finish seating. Works like a charm regardless of the dies being used.

 

[BenPerfected]

Wilson offers a full length sizing die that is set up for bushings.
Ben

 

[rsmithsr50]

try inside neck expanding if you are not turning necks,
do not believe internet bs, way too many people great fine brass with those dies

 

[NorCalMikie]

Redding “s” dies and the Forster bushing bump both appear to induce significant run out from what I’ve seen online.

Quit looking on line!!
Rather than thinking about runout, look at your targets. What do they say?
I've used Forster Precision Bushing Bump dies on just about everything (rifle) I load for, never bothered to check run out, never had accuracy issues and never had any group problems. A 5 shot group that can be covered with a dime is good enough for me.
It's NOT rocket science so don't make it any harder than it needs to be.
It's suppose to be fun and if it isn't? You're doing something wrong.

 

[sqrlgtr]

Ive had very good luck out of the various bushing die's also, but also had good luck out of the lee collet dies too.You can change your neck tension buy polishing the mandrel on the collet die's also.

 

[Uncle Ed]

Read the Redding bushing die FAQ, it tells you about some of the problems that you can have using a bushing die.
https://www.redding-reloading.com/tech-line-a-tips-faqs

The thing that stands out the most in the Redding FAQ is it tells you if your neck thickness varies .002 or more then use the expander with their die. And this means neck turning your cases if you do not want to use the expander. And a standard full length die may be a better choice than a bushing die. And if you lube the inside of your case necks using the expander is not the end of the world.

With a standard SAAMI chamber, the amount the neck needs to be reduced in diameter when sizing can increase neck runout. Remember the bushing floats, can move from side to side and even tilt when sizing the neck. If you neck turn the necks will expand more when fired and need to be reduced even more.

If you remove the expander from any standard non-bushing full length die your case will be as concentric as it ever will be. And this is because the case body and neck are held in perfect alignment. And Then you can use a expander die or the Forster die with its high mounted floating expander that will not pull the necks off center.

The main reason so many reloaders use a body die and the Lee collet die is because they get less neck runout than with a bushing die.

And remember the answers you get here in this forum that many of these shooters have custom made rifles with custom chambers.

So again bushing dies work best with custom tight neck chambers and neck turned brass. And all my rifles are off the shelf factory rifles with larger neck diameter chambers. And I have better results with non-bushing full length dies and have less neck runout after sizing. And if you do not have neck thickness and runout gauges you will be better off with your Lee and Forster dies.

Below is a cheap Lee die and the locking collet holds and centers the expander and can make very concentric ammo. Meaning unlike other dies it is very hard to lock the expand down off center that causes neck runout.

Below is a photo of some of the .223 dies I tested and checked neck runout after sizing. And by far the Forster full length dies are the best bet for off the shelf factory rifles. The Lee collet die worked very well for reduced neck runout. "BUT" my runout gauge did not like the vertical speed bumps the Lee die left on the necks. And I did not like sizing the case twice to get the same or better results as the Forster dies.

 

[Rdlningcltchdmpr]

I use Wilson neck die with Arbor press. Then a rcbs body die to bump shoulder. Or reverse order. Anyway it works (perfecto de perfecto)

 

[Metal God]

So again bushing dies work best with custom tight neck chambers and neck turned brass. And all my rifles are off the shelf factory rifles with larger neck diameter chambers. And I have better results with non-bushing full length dies and less neck runout after sizing.

That seems to be what I've found or at least what I've experienced with my factory chambered rifles . I use Redding bushing dies , originally so I did not work the brass any more then need be and I do use my expander button . My runout is a joke , .006+ at time regardless of brass used . Lapua , LC , Rem it does not matter . I however don't turn my necks either so that tracks with what Uncle Ed is saying .

My problem/issue is that I also have standard dies but they size down the neck WAAAAAY further then is needed before the expander sizes them back out . My issue is I don't know what to ask for if I were to order a custom die which I'd like to .

EXAMPLE
I have the body die and collet die set up as well . My mandrel is to large resulting in very low bullet hold . So I order a new mandrel from Lee only to not understand what I actually wanted . I measured the mandrel I have and think I need another maybe .003 smaller but that's not how they ask what size I want . They ask something like how much minus you want your mandrel . I did not know what I was to minus my measurement from , was it from .308 or my factory mandrel size . I don't remember what I chose , just remember being confused on what size to order . Long story short , what ordered was wrong . I think I ended up with pretty much 2 of the same size mandrels .

So when it comes to ordering a custom FL die I'm once again confused . Basically I want a die that when using the expander button only sizes down my case .002 or .003 more then my final .002 .003 of bullet hold . Meaning I want my inside diameter of my 308 neck to be .305 or .306 once fully sized with expander with out sizing the neck way more then that on the up stroke .

Yes I know all brass behaves differently and has different spring back consistencies which is where my brain starts to melt down when trying to figure this all out . I anneal but not every firing ( usually every 4 or 5 firings ) and most of my neck walls are pretty close in size . I don't shoot many if at all any light thin walled cases . I'm just not ready to buy one die for every brand of brass I shoot although that's really only two , LC and Lapua .

I'm not sure if there's a question in there but any help or ideas would be great

Thanks MG

 

[NZ_Fclass]

Everyone has a different solution to producing good ammo. In my 223 FTR rifle, a Savage Mod 10- factory except a Timney trigger, I use ADI brass. This is Australian manufacture and pretty good quality. Drilled primer holes and pretty consistent weight. However it is likely to be closer to .5.56 capacity. New brass is sized in an ordinary Hornady FL die and then neck sized with a Redding bushing die, .247. This gives me 3 thou ish neck tension. Concentricity is fine, around 1/1.5 thou at the bullet tip. The Savage has a good chamber and fron then neck sized only, I have previous ised the Lee collet, but my current solution has produced the more accurate ammo, in the .3's at 100 yds. Which is pretty fair for a factory gun that was on sale - the main reason I bought it!

 

[jepp2]

the bushing die size numbering should be installed in the DOWN position

Or up:
https://www.redding-reloading.com/tech-line-a-tips-faqs/142-concentricity-a-bushing-dies

I cut my case neck runout in half by switching to Whidden bushings vs using Redding bushings (both bare and coated). But I get my straightest case necks by honing my FL sizing die necks to the diameter I want, not what they give me. And if your expander is opening the case neck 0.002" or more, it is going to pull the case neck and increase TIR. But I spent way too much time and $$ on chasing reduced runout (neck and bullet) with no target results.

 

[mikecr]

I use Wilson bushing dies, no problem, but I doubt there is anything wrong with the others.

 

[Ned Ludd]

I’ve only been handloading for two years. Always FL size .223 and 6.5cm (Lee and Forster respectively). Interested in a bushing setup to better dial in neck tension on various brass; I don’t neck turn and don’t want to. I don’t shoot BR or f-o.

Redding “s” dies and the Forster bushing bump both appear to induce significant runout from what I’ve seen online.

Are the RCBS Matchmaster dies better? I don’t have the funds for WTC and am not interested in custom dies.

Don't believe everything you read online. I use several different Redding Type S dies and routinely obtain little to no runout. Chances are good that those having poor results with Redding dies may not have set them up properly. Although it's certainly possible to get a bad die (or any other piece of equipment) from a given manufacturer from time to time, it's also quite common for poor results to arise from improper setup and/or use of said piece of equipment. I have had several interactions with Redding's technical support and give them very high marks. In the event they sold a die that had some manufacturing defect, I have no doubt they would either repair or replace it promptly.

 

[Uncle Ed]

"Don't believe everything you read online". This is what I meant in my first posting, there is always someone in a forum who bushing dies can walk on water. I'm 69 and been reloading since I was 18 and all my dies will sink in water. And having a neck thickness and a runout gauge on your reloading bench will tell you if something is wrong. And a bushing die is no better than the quality and uniformity of your brass and how fat your chambers neck is.

So by the above posting by Ned Ludd, only stupid people get runout with a bushing die. And if you use a Lee collet die to get less runout than a bushing die you must be retarded. And it's a good thing I believe and trust my runout gauge and not everything I read in a forum.

So if you do not neck turn and do not use the expander with your bushing die all you are doing is pushing the neck thickness variation to the inside of the neck. If you do not neck turn the neck thickness variations after sizing can leave you with an out of round warped neck.

The Redding bushing die FAQ tells you if the neck needs to be reduced .006 or more to reduce the neck diameter in two steps, and this reduces neck runout. And simply put the bushing floats and the amount of neck sizing can let the bushing move where it wants to and induce runout.

The reason Redding tells you to place the bushing with the markings facing down is that the stampings may be raised and make the bushing tilt if placed up.

At the Whidden custom die website they tell you they get the most concentric cases with non-bushing full length dies. And they also sell neck expander kits with five expanders from bullet diameter to .004 under bullet diameter.

I like Forster non-bushing full length dies, "BUT" with all my .223 dies my Forster neck sizing bushing bump die produces the most runout. I believe this is because the case body is not fully supported and the bushing is not held in alignment with the case body.

And when you are in the woods, standing on your hind legs shooting at a running deer, runout is the least of your problems. And a bushing die will not tell you how far ahead of the running deer to aim.

 

[Martin52]

.....My issue is I don't know what to ask for if I were to order a custom die which I'd like to .

.....Basically I want a die that when using the expander button only sizes down my case .002 or .003 more then my final .002 .003 of bullet hold . any help or ideas would be great

Thanks MG

You can send 3 fired cases to Whidden Gunworks for a custom die, you can also order their expander balls in various sizes for use in the die. Or, you can specify a neck dimension if you want to use an expander mandrel, as available from 21st Century.

Forster were offering honed necks in their standard dies but I am not sure if they still do this, 0.334/5 might get you close to where you want to be, assuming unturned Lapua 0.308 brass (although the Lee Collet used with a body die when necessary is another good option)

http://www.xxicsi.com/expander-die-body.html
https://www.whiddengunworks.com/custom-reloading-dies

Regarding the mandrel in the Lee Collet die, I have 3 of these, one is the standard (I think 0.306) the other 2 were custom orders from Lee that I ordered for specific sizes (rather than saying anything about 'minus', for the same reason you gave) at .3065 and .3055.

Martin

 

[Metal God]

You can send 3 fired cases to Whidden Gunworks for a custom die, you can also order their expander balls in various sizes for use in the die. Or, you can specify a neck dimension if you want to use an expander mandrel, as available from 21st Century.

Do the whidden non bushing FL dies use a expander ? I don't see that they do or it's not specified on there site . Both my Lapua and LC-10 cases avg .014 neck wall thickness . I get a few measurements at .015 and a couple at .013 but most are around .014 using a micrometer that has a ball on the fixed end for the insides of the necks . This is measuring ten random pieces of each at 3 different points on the neck each . So .308 + .028 = .336 which is exactly what my loaded rounds measure . Am I correct in saying this means I want a Whidden 308 Winchester FL sizer with a neck diameter of .333" for a bullet hold of .003 ?

I just can't shake the feeling My cases are going to spring back to a inside diameter .307 and I once again will not have the bullet hold I'm looking for wasting another $100+

FWIW my fired necks outside diameter is .343 which means My necks need to be sized down .010 . I wont go into detail but when I spoke with redding they indicated that's a lot and could cause other problems if you don't use an expander when sizing a neck down that much . Full disclosure - We at the time were talking about there bushing die when not using the expander .

 

[Ned Ludd]

"Don't believe everything you read online". This is what I meant in my first posting, there is always someone in a forum who bushing dies can walk on water. I'm 69 and been reloading since I was 18 and all my dies will sink in water. And having a neck thickness and a runout gauge on your reloading bench will tell you if something is wrong. And a bushing die is no better than the quality and uniformity of your brass and how fat your chambers neck is.

So by the above posting by Ned Ludd, only stupid people get runout with a bushing die. And if you use a Lee collet die to get less runout than a bushing die you must be retarded. And it's a good thing I believe and trust my runout gauge and not everything I read in a forum.

So if you do not neck turn and do not use the expander with your bushing die all you are doing is pushing the neck thickness variation to the inside of the neck. If you do not neck turn the neck thickness variations after sizing can leave you with an out of round warped neck.

The Redding bushing die FAQ tells you if the neck needs to be reduced .006 or more to reduce the neck diameter in two steps, and this reduces neck runout. And simply put the bushing floats and the amount of neck sizing can let the bushing move where it wants to and induce runout.

The reason Redding tells you to place the bushing with the markings facing down is that the stampings may be raised and make the bushing tilt if placed up.

At the Whidden custom die website they tell you they get the most concentric cases with non-bushing full length dies. And they also sell neck expander kits with five expanders from bullet diameter to .004 under bullet diameter.

I like Forster non-bushing full length dies, "BUT" with all my .223 dies my Forster neck sizing bushing bump die produces the most runout. I believe this is because the case body is not fully supported and the bushing is not held in alignment with the case body.

And when you are in the woods, standing on your hind legs shooting at a running deer, runout is the least of your problems. And a bushing die will not tell you how far ahead of the running deer to aim.

I never used words even remotely like "stupid" or "retarded". Nor did my post have any mention of a collet die. All that came solely from you, so please don't try to project your words or thoughts onto me. Failure to follow directions precisely is simply something that humans occasionally do, and it can often be the root cause of less than satisfactory results. Like it or not, what I wrote is a factual statement, and was not intended as some kind of thinly veiled comment regarding anyone's innate intelligence. Nor was it aimed at your previous post, which I hadn't even read until after I had written my earlier post. Rather, it was intended as a counterpoint to the OP's innuendo that Redding dies are somehow defective and incapable of generating cases without excessive runout, a statement I find to be incorrect and misleading.

Ed does bring up a useful point with regard to runout; the expander ball. I remove the expander ball on all of my dies before ever using them. IMO - it serves no useful purpose and in some cases has clearly been pinpointed as the underlying cause of excessive runout. I reload quite a bit of .223 Rem and .308 Win ammunition for use in F-TR competitions. I do not turn necks and I can assure you my case necks are neither "warped" nor "out of round" during their useful life due to the lack of an expander ball. I find that being exposed to 50,000+ psi pressure every firing is quite sufficient to fully expand case body/neck to the limits of the chamber. I've won several State and Regional F-TR matches over the last few years using this ammunition, so clearly I'm doing something right. For bushing die users, my advice would be to first set the die up exactly as described in the instructions. If you then have issues with runout, contact the maker of the die for advice. If that doesn't solve the problem, remove the expander ball and determine whether that corrects the issue. After discovering that the expander ball has proven to be the cause of excessive runout for a number of shooters, I simply went straight to removing the expander ball straight out of the box on every die I own and it has never caused any negative issues whatsoever. YMMV.

 

[Martin52]

Q1: Do the whidden non bushing FL dies use a expander ?

Q2: Am I correct in saying this means I want a Whidden 308 Winchester FL sizer with a neck diameter of .333" for a bullet hold of .003 ?


Q3: FWIW my fired necks outside diameter is .343 which means My necks need to be sized down .010 . I wont go into detail but when I spoke with redding they indicated that's a lot and could cause other problems if you don't use an expander when sizing a neck down that much . Full disclosure - We at the time were talking about there bushing die when not using the expander .

Answers:
Q1: You can use the Whidden non bushing FLS die with an expander selected on the amount of expansion you are seeking from their 'kit', the expander balls are made in increments of 0.001.

https://www.whiddengunworks.com/product/expander-ball-kits-and-sets

You can also use the same die without the expander and instead use a expander mandrel type die as referred in my earlier post.

Q2: A case resized using a FLS die with an internal neck diameter of 0.333 and without an expander will give you about 0.003 hold assuming your loaded round is 0.336, before allowing for a little springback, so potentially a little more than 0.003 hold.

Q3: I have not had the problem sizing down by 0.010, my chamber neck is 0.339, this necessitates neck turning but removes the potential need to size down in 2 steps. I am not sure to what extent sizing down this amount is a problem. If I were to step down, I might try Step 1 using my Lee Collet die then Step 2 in my FLS die with the 0.333 neck.

On another point in your last post:
If your neck thickness really does vary 0.013 to 0.015, after using the FLS with say a 0.333 neck, I would prefer to expand up using a separate expander mandrel die so that the internal diameters of the resized cases are all the same. If you use a bushing with this level of neck thickness variance then inconsistent neck tension is likely to result. Check your measurements though, whenever I get new Lapua brass its generally 0.014 - 0.015, not down to 0.013.

Martin

 

[BoydAllen]

First of all, in defense of bushing dies, most of the short range benchrest shooters that I know of use them. Think about that for a minute. Secondly the OP did not tell us anything about the rifles that he loads for, but if we assume factory chambers, with generous neck clearance on unturned brass, one of the possible issues with bushings is the amount of neck reduction involved during sizing. For that reason, I suggest that one viable option for those situations ( factory chambers combined with unturned necks) is to combine neck sizing with a Lee Collet die, with a body die, and a good seater. I have had good results with this combination as have others. Finally, I do not believe that anyone but Redding makes body dies, although using any bushing FL die without a bushing would have the same effect. Saying that you want perfection from factory dies is not realistic. Generally they over size brass that has been fired in factory chambers and that, by itself contributes to runout. FYI you can dial in neck tension with collet dies by using different diameter mandrels.