Giraud trimmer question

[Shooter13]

I'm getting trimmer and getting 6PPC and 30BR trimmers, do I need to order the extra cutter for the 30BR or is this an easy adjustment to set up? Would it really "speed up" change over? No, I'm not in a hurry LOL any other advice received willingly.
Thanks in advance
shooter13

 

[XTR]

Get the extra cutter. It’s not about speed, Ok, it’s a little about speed, but it’s a PITA to get it just like you want it.

Also, if you haven’t seen the posts buy some lock rings for reloading dies for your case inserts, set it, tighten the set screw and you don’t have to reset the trim length every time you change case holders.

Like these
https://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/dept/reloading/die-parts-and-acc-point-/die-lock-ring

 

[Shooter13]

Get the extra cutter. It’s not about speed, Ok, it’s a little about speed, but it’s a PITA to get it just like you want it.

Also, if you haven’t seen the posts buy some lock rings for reloading dies for your case inserts, set it, tighten the set screw and you don’t have to reset the trim length every time you change case holders.

Like these
https://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/dept/reloading/die-parts-and-acc-point-/die-lock-ring

Thanks, called and ordered it, I have the lock rings too!

 

[Brians356]

Question: With the Giraud, how does one adjust it to minimize the depth of chamfer and deburr, i.e. to minimize the amount of brass removed from the "corners".

I adhere to the tenet that the purpose of deburring (and chamfering) is to literally remove the burr left behind by the tendency of relatively soft brass to fold over and spread out at both ends of the cut, rather than to additionally disfigure the squared end of the case wall.
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[spife7980]

Question: With the Giraud, how does one adjust it to minimize the depth of chamfer and deburr, i.e. to minimize the amount of brass removed from the "corners".

I adhere to the tenet that the purpose of deburring (and chamfering) is to literally remove the burr left behind by the tendency of relatively soft brass to fold over and spread out at both ends of the cut, rather than to additionally disfigure the squared end of the case wall.
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You dont really. You can off set it for less chamfer at the expense of more deburr. But the angle of the cutter is what it is so you just have to live with it.

I suppose you could have it set up so that the brass doesnt feed all the way down into the bottom of the v, so that you are getting less chamfer and deburr, but then you wont be trimming the cases actual length. And as the brass grows youre back to where you started from of not being able to trim length without fully engaging the trimming blade.

I just set it up to give me the proportional chamfer/deburr relationship Im after and rock on. A bit more chamfer than absolute minimum isnt going to hurt anything..

 

[Ned Ludd]

The Giraud does not "disfigure" the case mouths, IMO. It cuts the most beautiful inside/outside bevels you will ever see. Bullets seated in cases trimmed/chamfered with the Giraud go in absolutely like butter, and every single case will be trimmed exactly the same. It does exactly what a trimmer should do. Do the bevels have to be as deep as they are in order to function? No. However, the more important question is whether having a nice deep chamfer as is cut by the Giraud in any way impairs precision/consistency. I believe the answer to that is also, "No." In fact, the uniformity and consistency to which the Giraud trims and chamfers cases actually promotes precision, IMO.

In the most general sense, because the blade is a notched "V" shape, adjusting it side-to-side will minimize/maximize the inside/outside chamfer, one at the expense of the other as spife7980 mentioned. It is actually a little more complicated than that, as the shape of the "V" notched blade will allow for more complex adjustment of the bevels and trim length, but doing so requires a good eye and an extreme amount of patience to get it "just right".

 

[spife7980]

It is actually a little more complicated than that, as the shape of the "V" notched blade will allow for more complex adjustment of the bevels and trim length, but doing so requires a good eye and an extreme amount of patience to get it "just right".

It is but I have found it easier to just set the blade down flat on the cutter head and tighten it down, its already hard enough to get it located radially where I want it... much less having to hold it at an angle in space.
I think I have extreme patience, just not that extreme

 

[Brians356]

The Giraud does not "disfigure" the case mouths, IMO. It cuts the most beautiful inside/outside bevels you will ever see. Bullets seated in cases trimmed/chamfered with the Giraud go in absolutely like butter, and every single case will be trimmed exactly the same. It does exactly what a trimmer should do. Do the bevels have to be as deep as they are in order to function? No. However, the more important question is whether having a nice deep chamfer as is cut by the Giraud in any way impairs precision/consistency. I believe the answer to that is also, "No." In fact, the uniformity and consistency to which the Giraud trims and chamfers cases actually promotes precision, IMO.

In the most general sense, because the blade is a notched "V" shape, adjusting it side-to-side will minimize/maximize the inside/outside chamfer, one at the expense of the other as spife7980 mentioned. It is actually a little more complicated than that, as the shape of the "V" notched blade will allow for more complex adjustment of the bevels and trim length, but doing so requires a good eye and an extreme amount of patience to get it "just right".

Thanks. You confirmed that it creates substantial bevels, which I consider unnecessary and deleterious. The thinner the end of the case walls at the mouth, the more susceptible to damage from mishandling or during ejection. To my eye that disfigures the case mouth, but beauty is in the eye of the beholder. However, I make no assertion that it has any effect on accuracy, nor do I pretend to try to convince anyone else that it's somehow improper to bevel the neck walls to their heart's content.
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[Ned Ludd]

Thanks. You confirmed that it creates substantial bevels, which I consider unnecessary and deleterious. The thinner the end of the case walls at the mouth, the more susceptible to damage from mishandling or during ejection. To my eye that disfigures the case mouth, but beauty is in the eye of the beholder. However, I make no assertion that it has any effect on accuracy, nor do I pretend to try to convince anyone else that it's somehow improper to bevel the neck walls to their heart's content.
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The only way I could see around this would be to change the shape of the V notch in the cutting blade. If the notch were smaller and less deep, the depth of the bevels would also be minimized. My understanding is that the blades Doug [Giraud] uses are standard three sided blades that have been modified with the V notch cutting surface, as opposed to the original flat cutting surfaces. I have no idea who actually makes/modifies the cutting blades, but I'd imagine it couldn't be much trouble to have the depth of the V notch made to any depth you'd like, thereby allowing a much more minimal bevel to be cut around the case mouth.

Edited to add: The bottom of the V notch in the blade has a slight radius to it. In other words, it does not cut a knife-sharp and thin edge around the case mouth. I set mine so that it cuts a pretty heavy bevel on the inside, and just barely knocks off the corner on the outside. However, the two bevels don't "meet" on the outside of the case mouth and there is a relatively flat (or at least, slightly curved) region on the outer edge of the case mouth in between the two bevels. FWIW - I do not take any special care of cases trimmed with the Giraud and have never had any issues with regard to damaging the case mouths.

 

[natdscott]

Thanks, called and ordered it, I have the lock rings too!

FYI: The giraud holders are 7/8-24.

 

[Straightshooter1]

FWIW - I do not take any special care of cases trimmed with the Giraud and have never had any issues with regard to damaging the case mouths.

The only issue can be when wet tumbling after a firing where that edge is peened and will tend to roll that edge inward. With that edge rolled inward that can present a seating issue. Since I run all my fired cases through the Giraud trimmer as the last step in my process, this is not an issue as the new champfer removes the rolled edge even if there's little to be trimmed to length.

 

[Shooter13]

The only issue can be when wet tumbling after a firing where that edge is peened and will tend to roll that edge inward. With that edge rolled inward that can present a seating issue. Since I run all my fired cases through the Giraud trimmer as the last step in my process, this is not an issue as the new champfer removes the rolled edge even if there's little to be trimmed to length.

Thank you, this is getting confusing sense I don't have the trimmer yet.

 

[Ned Ludd]

The only issue can be when wet tumbling after a firing where that edge is peened and will tend to roll that edge inward. With that edge rolled inward that can present a seating issue. Since I run all my fired cases through the Giraud trimmer as the last step in my process, this is not an issue as the new champfer removes the rolled edge even if there's little to be trimmed to length.

The very last step in my brass prep is also trim/chamfer with the Giraud. I can't imagine doing it otherwise, for the very reason that peening can and will occur around the case mouth during tumbling, regardless of the method used to chamfer. So the trim/chamfer step comes last, and peening becomes a non-issue.

 

[XTR]

Two things I’d never consider being without loading in the volume I load. Giraud trimmer and an auto-trickler, and I know a lot of folks have gone AMP, but the third would be my Benchsource annealer.

 

[Shooter13]

Two things I’d never consider being without loading in the volume I load. Giraud trimmer and an auto-trickler, and I know a lot of folks have gone AMP, but the third would be my Benchsource annealer.

Yes I purchased the AMP after having the Benchsource and really don't think I'd ever look back for more than a couple of reasons, open flame being the first. I was Fire department for 35 years, 17 as chief and all it takes is 1 (one) one mistake with open flame and powder and you can have a disaster.

 

[rardoin]

Thanks. You confirmed that it creates substantial bevels, which I consider unnecessary and deleterious. The thinner the end of the case walls at the mouth, the more susceptible to damage from mishandling or during ejection. To my eye that disfigures the case mouth, but beauty is in the eye of the beholder. However, I make no assertion that it has any effect on accuracy, nor do I pretend to try to convince anyone else that it's somehow improper to bevel the neck walls to their heart's content.
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I assume you have never set-up or used a Giraud....at least not to full advantage. If set up well none of the issues you describe are present. Most people assume you can only slide the cutter in a radial direction causing more or less chamfer and the opposite in regards to debur. The cutter angle can also be set to change the angle of the chamfer/debur; a smaller chamfer angle (longer chamfer) results in a larger debur angle (shorter debur bevel). For the changes it is tedious to set-up but once done it never has to be repeated. It does require separate cutter heads for each cartridge. The 'V' on the cutter insert is not a sharp angle but a radius.

 

[Brians356]

I assume you have never set-up or used a Giraud....at least not to full advantage. If set up well none of the issues you describe are present. Most people assume you can only slide the cutter in a radial direction causing more or less chamfer and the opposite in regards to debur. The cutter angle can also be set to change the angle of the chamfer/debur; a smaller chamfer angle (longer chamfer) results in a larger debur angle (shorter debur bevel). For the changes it is tedious to set-up but once done it never has to be repeated. It does require separate cutter heads for each cartridge. The 'V' on the cutter insert is not a sharp angle but a radius.

I do not need to use a Giraud to recognize the main issue I described is present. I've seen any number of high-quality closeup images of case mouths after trimming. It's evident that far more material has been removed than necessary to minimally chamfer and deburr. As I stated, my old-school notion is that the trimmer will cut square, and that chamfering/deburring will restore the ends of the case walls to very nearly squared and as thick as possible. Your description makes clear the Giraud cannot achieve that. My preference may seem curious, and can be reasonably questioned, but it's useless to suggests the Giraud can be set up to satisfy that preference.
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[rardoin]

I do not need to use a Giraud to recognize the main issue I described is present. I've seen any number of high-quality closeup images of case mouths after trimming. It's evident that far more material has been removed than necessary to minimally chamfer and deburr. As I stated my old-school notion is for the trimmer to cut square, and for chamfering/deburring to restore the ends of the case walls to very nearly squared and as thick as possible. Your description makes clear the Giraud cannot achieve that. My preference may seem curious, and can be reasonably questioned, but it's useless to suggests the Giraud can be set up to satisfy that preference.
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I understand.

 

[Shooter13]

I do not need to use a Giraud to recognize the main issue I described is present. I've seen any number of high-quality closeup images of case mouths after trimming. It's evident that far more material has been removed than necessary to minimally chamfer and deburr. As I stated my old-school notion is for the trimmer to cut square, and for chamfering/deburring to restore the ends of the case walls to very nearly squared and as thick as possible. Your description makes clear the Giraud cannot achieve that. My preference may seem curious, and can be reasonably questioned, but it's useless to suggests the Giraud can be set up to satisfy that preference.
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I do understand where you are coming from and I don't own the Giraud yet but will soon, I have seated thousands upon thousands of bullets and having a square mouth is NOT what I want and even using the old equipment you will not get a square mouth nor should you want one. JMHO

 

[Brians356]

I have seated thousands upon thousands of bullets and having a square mouth is NOT what I want and even using the old equipment you will not get a square mouth nor should you want one. JMHO

Recall my words "very nearly squared and as thick as possible". It is, practically speaking, impossible to deburr yet leave a microscopically square, sharp 90-deg corner. I've repeatedly referred to "minimally chamfered". There will always exist some bevel, and I always burnish the mouth with steel wool which will smooth out any true "edge" anyway.

When you consider that the neck ID is typically sized only about 2 thousandths smaller that bullet OD, and observe closely the base of any bullet, even a flat-based bullet's heel sports a generous radius much more than sufficient to ease the bullet into a minimally-chamfered and reasonably smooth case mouth. If the chamfer creates a neck entry "funnel" far wider than bullet diameter, it only means the bullet won't even start expanding the neck until the bullet meets the narrower portion of the funnel well below the case mouth, so the extra width is essentially superfluous and a waste of neck material.

I simply choose not to sacrifice case mouth material in favor of an unnecessarily deep chamfer. Perhaps as you say I should want to, but there it is.
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