I have 3 Ishapor 2As(cant spell it). I tried forester headspace guages on them and none would close on the go gauge. Am I correct to assume the shoulder is set back more on 7.62 nato than on commerical 308 brass/ ammunition? Would it be possible to load for them by setting shoulder back? The do chamber the Nato round just fine.
Help with 7.62 Nato
- Thread starter rmkey
- Start date
something does not sound correct.
typically(not always) mil surps tent to have large long chambers.
what gage are you using ??
hmmm call forester and ask for the diff in a 308 and a7.62 go gage
typically(not always) mil surps tent to have large long chambers.
what gage are you using ??
hmmm call forester and ask for the diff in a 308 and a7.62 go gage
Headspace gauges can vary; 7.62 is typically the same shoulder as 308;. My guess is you have Saami minimum Chambers (match) and the Forester go gauge is slightly bigger. Let's see if anyone else chimes in; bit I'd say that you're ok to continue. Problems may occur if the no-go gauge would chamber, and as stated this isn't the situation.
I have one of those rifles also. It looks like a British 303 enfield. They have a big old extractor and it may not allow you to use the headspace gauge correctly. These rifles are designed to handle NATO pressure ammo and not hotter 308 Winchester ammo. Load them middle or the charge data as a max charge to be safe. My rifle shoots pretty good with 43 grs IMR 4895 with 150 Sierra Match King or Pro Hunter bullets in Winchester cases. Only problem I have with my rifle is the safety is screw up. If the safety is on when I cock the rifle and then when I take the safety off it releases the striker. If you leave the safety in the off position the rifle functions perfectly. Only time I use this rifle is to target shoot and play with at the range. When I got the rifle all the metal had been painted black but a lot of it had come off and looked bad. The bore was shinny and the insides look good. I stripped all the paint off the metal and it had no pits from rust and the metal was blued. I never had any headspace gauges so this is what I always did with these old military rifles. I would take an old car tire and but the butt inside and lay the forearm on the outside of the other side and then tie it down to the tire. Then tie a long string on the trigger and string it a good ways back behind it. Load it and then go way back and pull the string to fire the rifle. Then I would check and measure the case to see what it looks like. I never bought any rifles that looked in really bad condition though and never got one with bad headspace and never had one blow up. I wish I would have bought a train load of the old military rifles that you could get for $75 to $150 twenty five years ago. I would retire early on what they sale for these days.
No the case of the 308 Win. and the NATO case is the same.
No the case of the 308 Win. and the NATO case is the same.
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The 308w case is not the same as the 7.62 x 51 NATO case. SAAMI gauges have different datum points so don't fit. The Indian gauge is slightly different to the British gauge, being the datum point. Have you tried closing the bolt on 308w cases. The chamber will probably be cut for the 144gn projectile so will not chamber any thing much longer. Also don't use loads heavier than the NATO loads the rifles are NOT FULL HOUSE 308 capable. It the rifles are 2A the action could be a over 100 year old British 303 . 2A1s could be later made but still only 303 actions. Dont fall for the myth they used better steel. That action is weaker than the No4 and they had a failure rate in conversion to use of the NATO round.
Thanks for all the replies. All I know is it will not close on brass for my savage which is why I ask about shoulder bump. I have several boxes of Win 308 labeled 7.62 NATO. Both rifles chamber and fire the rounds labeled nato. The 3 rd is still soaking in cosmoline. The rifles are in the same condition as the one described above. Mine were made in late 60s and 1973. I will load only starting 308 loads. They are after all only play toys.
do not believe the internet stories about them not being safe.
load 7.62 safe ammo and have at it. way to many "stories"
mine shot and functioned well.
the black "paint" is called stoving or stove black..it Is how the rifles were finished.
load 7.62 safe ammo and have at it. way to many "stories"
mine shot and functioned well.
the black "paint" is called stoving or stove black..it Is how the rifles were finished.
I never said they were unsafe they are proofed for 144gn projectiles which is at the upper end for that action. The Australian army tried to upgrade the same action to 7.62 NATO and failed the project because of action cracking at proof loads. The Indians gave them to the police and army cadets to parade and rarely fire. The army went straight to the L1A1 they built in house. Their police force is bigger than most armies so it was a logistical decision.
Depart123
Exterior dimensions are exactly the same.
The interior is not and that has a big bearing on pressure and neck tension. Believe me the go gauge and the no gauge are different. The military does not use SAMMI particularly outside the USA.
more internet bs
the indian rifles were built new not converted for 7.62.
( they often used recycled 303 stocks)
one difference from the 303 rifles was the use of improved steel to handle the increased pressures of the 7.62mm NATO round.
the indian ammo is 145 gr...maybe the aussies have an issue making quality 144 ammo.
mine ran fine and I shot more than entry level loads.
the indian rifles were built new not converted for 7.62.
( they often used recycled 303 stocks)
one difference from the 303 rifles was the use of improved steel to handle the increased pressures of the 7.62mm NATO round.
the indian ammo is 145 gr...maybe the aussies have an issue making quality 144 ammo.
mine ran fine and I shot more than entry level loads.
The 2A is a recycled action. The 2a1 can be a new action. The steel specs were not changed this myth was taken down by a leading British armourer some years ago. There was no issue with the Aussie ammo but what army would want a new bolt action rifle when the world was going semi/full auto.
The Indian army was as big or bigger than all the Commonwealth/British armies added together. The transition from 303 to NATO was a huge step plus the SLR build. New bolt head new barrel you have a single shot add a magazine you are good to go with a quick grind on the sight ramp for a 2a. The 2a1 has a new sight that is only graduated to 800 not 1200 as the 2a was. The 2a1 comes with the square bayonet boss.
Suggest you do a search on the Milsurps forum. This issue was well hammered there. Some of those blokes have forgotten more about these rifles than most ever knew because they worked on them for a living.
Thanks for all the replies. All I know is it will not close on brass for my savage which is why I ask about shoulder bump. I have several boxes of Win 308 labeled 7.62 NATO. Both rifles chamber and fire the rounds labeled nato. The 3 rd is still soaking in cosmoline. The rifles are in the same condition as the one described above.
The extractor seems to be the problem. It is large. I took apart cleaned and lubed. Not obvious how to remove the metal spring clip. The bolt is hard to close because it cocks on closing but the extractor requires even more effort as the cartridge has to push back the extractor against exceptional strong spring pressure for it to slip over the cartridge rim.
The second gun the extractor requires extreme bolt pressure to close over cartridge rim - too much! There must be a way to relieve the extractor spring pressure. The spring is nothing more than a steel clip inserted in the bolt head that exerts pressure on the upward movement of the extractor - any suggestions?
I’m tried registering on mil surp but their website is not easy to resister.
This has nothing to do with shoulder bump or chamber dimensions as I thought and everything to do with the extractor. The chamber dimensions are huge. I fired 2 rounds in the first gun - one nato and one 308. These were factory loads and just like new brass the head to shoulder measurements were 1.625 on empty brass and new ammo alike. When fired the shoulder measurement was 1.640 on both guns. I can only assume one could set up a FL die to bump the shoulder to1.638 to reload?
The second gun the extractor requires extreme bolt pressure to close over cartridge rim - too much! There must be a way to relieve the extractor spring pressure. The spring is nothing more than a steel clip inserted in the bolt head that exerts pressure on the upward movement of the extractor - any suggestions?
I’m tried registering on mil surp but their website is not easy to resister.
This has nothing to do with shoulder bump or chamber dimensions as I thought and everything to do with the extractor. The chamber dimensions are huge. I fired 2 rounds in the first gun - one nato and one 308. These were factory loads and just like new brass the head to shoulder measurements were 1.625 on empty brass and new ammo alike. When fired the shoulder measurement was 1.640 on both guns. I can only assume one could set up a FL die to bump the shoulder to1.638 to reload?
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Chamber dimensions and headspace gauges can vary by country, examples below.
British Enfield L42 A1 7.62 headspace gauges.
GO 1.628
NO-GO 1.635
British L1A1 7.62 headspace gauges.
GO 1.6325
NO-GO 1.643
There is no published headspace data for India made Ishapore Enfield 7.62 rifles, BUT my well used 2A1 would close on my GO gauge at 1.630.
The max American SAAMI .308 headspace is 1.640 and would be a Field gauge.
Your head clearance is the amount of air space between the rear of the case and the bolt face. And this is the distance the case must stretch to meet the bolt face when fired. This case stretching acts like a cars shock absorber and reduces the amount of bolt thrust. Meaning it is better to have .003 or more head clearance and put less force on the locking lugs.
NOTE, a .303 Enfield rifle at max headspace of .074 and a rim thickness of .058 will have .016 head clearance. This would be safe to shoot but would be hard on the brass as far as reloading is concerned.
Question, will your bolt close on loaded factory ammunition without resistance. You can use a black felt tip marker and color the case shoulder and base of the case and see if any rubs off. If the factory ammunition chambers hard it can cause extraction problems because the case can not spring back from the chamber walls.
Pacific Tool and Gauge offers three lengths of headspace gauges per rifle caliber. In order from the shortest to longest, they are: GO, NO-GO, and FIELD:
British Enfield L42 A1 7.62 headspace gauges.
GO 1.628
NO-GO 1.635
British L1A1 7.62 headspace gauges.
GO 1.6325
NO-GO 1.643
There is no published headspace data for India made Ishapore Enfield 7.62 rifles, BUT my well used 2A1 would close on my GO gauge at 1.630.
The max American SAAMI .308 headspace is 1.640 and would be a Field gauge.
Your head clearance is the amount of air space between the rear of the case and the bolt face. And this is the distance the case must stretch to meet the bolt face when fired. This case stretching acts like a cars shock absorber and reduces the amount of bolt thrust. Meaning it is better to have .003 or more head clearance and put less force on the locking lugs.
NOTE, a .303 Enfield rifle at max headspace of .074 and a rim thickness of .058 will have .016 head clearance. This would be safe to shoot but would be hard on the brass as far as reloading is concerned.
Question, will your bolt close on loaded factory ammunition without resistance. You can use a black felt tip marker and color the case shoulder and base of the case and see if any rubs off. If the factory ammunition chambers hard it can cause extraction problems because the case can not spring back from the chamber walls.
Pacific Tool and Gauge offers three lengths of headspace gauges per rifle caliber. In order from the shortest to longest, they are: GO, NO-GO, and FIELD:
- GO: Corresponds to the minimum chamber dimensions. If a rifle closes on a GO gauge, the chamber will accept ammunition that is made to SAAMI’s maximum specifications. The GO gauge is essential for checking a newly-reamed chamber in order to ensure a tight, accurate and safe chamber that will accept SAAMI maximum ammo. Although the GO gauge is necessary for a gunsmith or armorer, it usually has fewer applications for the collector or surplus firearms purchaser.
- NO-GO: Corresponds to the maximum headspace Forster recommends for gunsmiths chambering new, bolt action rifles. This is NOT a SAAMI-maximum measurement. If a rifle closes on a NO-GO gauge, it may still be within SAAMI specifications or it may have excessive headspace. To determine if there is excessive headspace, the chamber should then be checked with a FIELD gauge. The NO-GO gauge is a valuable tool for checking a newly-reamed chamber in order to ensure a tight and accurate chamber.
- FIELD: Corresponds to the longest safe headspace. If a rifle closes on a FIELD gauge, its chamber is dangerously close to, or longer than, SAAMI’s specified maximum chamber size. If chamber headspace is excessive, the gun should be taken out of service until it has been inspected and repaired by a competent gunsmith. FIELD gauges are slightly shorter than the SAAMI maximum in order to give a small safety margin.
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That’s an impressive headspace answer. However, the extractor spring exerts such force it make the chambering of any case very difficult as the extractor refuses to clip over cartridge into extraction grove. Is there anyway to remove extraction leaf spring and compress to lessen strength of force required to get extractor to snap over case head into extraction groove? Just as a precaution I have ordered a couple extraction springs from gun parts. Thanks
You do not need to disassemble the extractor to check headspace, you just place the gauge "UNDER" the extractor. A cartridge should chamber without feeding from the magazine do you have old dry cosmoline in the bolt head or in the extractor slot in the rear of the barrel.
The extractor as the bolt closes moves to the right and away from the case rim.
Below I always used a small screwdriver to push down on the extractor spring and then insert the extractor.
The extractor as the bolt closes moves to the right and away from the case rim.
Below I always used a small screwdriver to push down on the extractor spring and then insert the extractor.
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