Savage coned bolt??

[NorCalMikie]

It was mentioned in a conversation that a "coned bolt" might be a cure for feeding into the chamber on a Savage action.
Short fat round that I have to "point up and start into the chamber" before I think about closing the bolt. Got the reamer so moving the chamber ahead a bit wouldn't be too much of an issue. Thoughts?

 

[Dusty Stevens]

Where can you get a coned bolt for a savage?

 

[NorCalMikie]

That's what I'am asking.
Anybody with a lathe could turn the front of the bolt head down to match the turned down chamber area of the barrel??? Only issue might be around the extractor slot??
Looking at pictures of a coned bolt and barrel from a Remington got me to wondering. Might be just what's needed to cure the feeding problem on my Savage.

 

[Nightraider]

That's what I'am asking.
Anybody with a lathe could turn the front of the bolt head down to match the turned down chamber area of the barrel??? Only issue might be around the extractor slot??
Looking at pictures of a coned bolt and barrel from a Remington got me to wondering. Might be just what's needed to cure the feeding problem on my Savage.

That's not how that works

 

[Dusty Stevens]

A coned bolt is a coned bolt from the start- not one turned down. A coned bolt was designed for single shot actions and most of the time will not strip a round from a mag unless the whole shebang was designed that way. Here is a defiance coned bolt repeater. Unfortunately it requires an extractor slot cut into the breech face.

 

[NorCalMikie]

Where can you get a coned bolt for a savage?

You make it.

That's not how that works

Well then,exactly how does it work?
If the front of the bolt face is lathe tapered a bit, (like a Remington coned bolt) then the face of the barrel tenon is tapered (like a funnel) to match the bolt angle, with a difference of a few degrees, isn't that like being coned??

Dusty:
Go back and read my first post. You will see the reasons for my questions. It would be for single feeding. The bullet point hits the face of the barrel rather than starting up into the chamber SO, if the barrel is concave tapered (like a ramp/funnel) up to the chamber opening the round starts into the chamber. It would be much worse as the round gets smaller like say a 17 VHA. More barrel material than chamber opening.
And what ever happened to "Adapt, Improvise and Overcome??

 

[Dusty Stevens]

The follower dish and height can be adjusted to make them go right in. It does take time though

 

[mikecr]

The answer is not a coned bolt, but cartridge feeding that is centered.
That is, either the correct action for the cartridge or one with modifications (which would include a modified or correct bolt).

Way back I had a BAT made for the WSSM case. Ever notice Savage actions are different for WSSM cases? It's because Savage knows what they're doing, and so does Bruce Thom at BAT.
Due to the case diameter, being magnum, the action and bolt needed to suit this. It's not merely getting enough barrel steel around the chamber, but of proper feeding and extraction too.
The carriage (may be wrong term) that the inserted cartridge sits on needs to put that cartridge center-line with the action/chamber.
It's my opinion that conning of the breech is not for feeding at all. That it's for further breech support. This is what I wanted so that combined with chamber fitting to new cases, I could run at SAAMI max pressure (65Kpsi) with no need for body sizing -ever.

Bruce put together a single shot magnum with coned controlled round push feed (CRPF) and standing blade ejection (SBE):

And it works great.

If your proposed cartridge center-line is hitting all the way outside of 1/2 chamber diameter, then your plan so far sucks.. The bullets will still hit a coned breech, and that won't ever be 'good'.

 

[NorCalMikie]

The problem I have is the action ID is too big for the smaller round and ends up having a long way "UP" to the center of the chamber. It does lay in the center of the feed ramp. And it can't be any smaller or the bolt head won't fit into the action.
The same short fat round dropped on to the fed ramp of a Remington XP 100 action slides right into place with no issues and it isn't coned.

 

[Spook]

pre 64 model 70 repeater, coned from the factory. Nothing at all wrong with the way they feed or cycle.
I dont know who created the single shot myth, but putting a funnel at the end of a round hole for a round peg to fit into not only makes sense , it works well.

 

[Bill K]

Mikie: I think a better and much easier solution to the feeding of rounds into the savage, at least on the bench or critter fields would be get a single load sled, from the likes of Bob's Sled and use it, rather than try to make a coned Savage action, barrel and bolt. That is what I use on my savage actions and even the CZ's when shooting squeeks and rock chucks and it works just fine.
Just a thought. Bill K

 

[memilanuk]

I've enountered the same issue with my Savage Target Actions. One, a .30 BR, just happens to be short/fat enough that it won't feed without manual (as in me sticking my fingers in the ejection port) intervention, every time. Damn accurate gun, but difficult to run fast enough to keep up with the custom actions. Just gotta read the wind better if you run slower...

On a couple .223 Rems set up for FTR, with a skinny case body and a long heavy (for caliber) bullet, they often end up running right into the breech face of the barrel, immediately *below* the chamber. A little manual finagling, and just dropping the round into the port with the tip just started into the chamber mouth, seems to work - most of the time.

Back when I used repeaters with single load trays, I recall one that I'd picked up used (old 40X repeater) where they'd gone in with something like Bondo or epoxy and somewhat modified the tray portion to adjust the attitude of the rounds as they approached the chamber. I've often wondered about doing something like that on a Savage TA, but I've always been a little hesitant about undoing it if I messed up the first time or two.

 

[mikecr]

If you raise the tray the bolt won't fit without modification. Then there is potential binding of the ammo with it forced to point upward while loading from under the chamber.
So the bullet would end up hitting both the breech early, and the chamber shoulder further on.

While I'm sure a jerry-rigged build can work with special fiddling around, it won't be right as the correct build. After all, coning is not needed at all for feeding with bolt actions used per design.

 

[memilanuk]

IIRC the mod didn't so much raise the entire tray area, more that it smoothed out the transition. In turn, that changed how the round approached the chamber mouth. Hard to describe without a picture... which I don't have handy.

 

[Dusty Stevens]

IIRC the mod didn't so much raise the entire tray area, more that it smoothed out the transition. In turn, that changed how the round approached the chamber mouth. Hard to describe without a picture... which I don't have handy.

Thats what i meant by the dish out. The back of the round falls deeper and the ramp puts it into the right spot

 

[Robert]

Modify an existing action to coned breech is not possible, as the chamber moved forward need either a longer specific bolt or an extension of the barrel shank as male and female cones have to be made matching with minimal clearance.

Sorry to disagree on the question of repeaters : Coned breech actions can be designed to work perfectly as repeaters, even with .223 bolt faces .

Various past military and civilian repeaters had coned breeches. The designs need to be adapted in what concerns the bolt face recess and the ejector principle.

R.G.C

c-g-designs.blog4ever.com

 

[ebb]

Use the Remington XP100 you mentioned previously. You will even be able to get a good trigger for it.

 

[NorCalMikie]

Bill:
All my rigs are set up as "single shots" with adapters OR as factory single shot actions. No matter what you do, the bullet of the "short fat round" hits the breech face before it can get up to the chamber opening. And you can't change the angle of the feed ramp without running into problems with the bolt lug hitting. Been there, tried that. Not sure what the difference is with the XP action but it sure works better than the Savage.
I was thinking, a lathe, a couple of beers and a couple of bolt heads and you will find out one way or another if it would work or not.
Adapt, Improvise and Overcome. Or is it, hold my beer and watch this?

 

[Bill K]

I guess you will just have to use that plan of attack and see if it does work. Keep us posted on progress and maybe some photos also, to show results.

 

[NorCalMikie]

I did just build a couple of dummy rounds of the "20 TCM". Dropped them in the loading port on my XP 100 rifle action to make double sure they would feed. Smooooth as silk.
Now I need someone with a XP 100 pistol in .221 Fireball that wants to trade for a Savage bench gun.