277 SIG Fury

[Downhill]

Just read the ballistics release on SIG's new cartridge. 135g projectile in a 16" barrel at 3000 fps. Looks interesting. But then notice the 80,000 psi chamber pressure.?!? I realize it utilizes a hybrid case to accommodate the high pressure. Am I wrong in assuming the handloader will limited to 6.8 SPC capabilities using cases made from brass?

 

[46and2]

Just read the ballistics release on SIG's new cartridge. 135g projectile in a 16" barrel at 3000 fps. Looks interesting. But then notice the 80,000 psi chamber pressure.?!? I realize it utilizes a hybrid case to accommodate the high pressure. Am I wrong in assuming the handloader will limited to 6.8 SPC capabilities using cases made from brass?

Most likely. The hybrid case head is where and how they're achieving the 80k.

 

[Forum Boss]

this was posted on All4shooters.com:

The .277 SIG Fury hybrid cartridge
The push button, foldable SIG precision stock is fully adjustable.
With the Cross, also comes the new cartridge. Basically, the .277 is the same 6.8x51 mm ammunition developed for the US Army’s Next Generation Squad Weapon program – a high pressure, hybrid-cased cartridge that couples a steel base with a plastic case. The SIG Sauer 6.8mm hybrid ammunition is designed for increased penetration at greater distances, and according to SIG's claims, it can reach 3000 fps velocity from a 16″ barrel. The .277 SIG Fury is awaiting approval from SAAMI, probably in time for the next SHOT Show.

LINK: https://www.all4shooters.com/en/hun...rid-cartridge-the-cross-in-277-fury-277-fury/

 

[Catfur]

Am I wrong in assuming the handloader will limited to 6.8 SPC capabilities using cases made from brass?

Looks more like a .277-308Win, than a 6.8SPC based case.

 

[Dusty Stevens]

Not sure id consider that an ultimate hunting rifle but im glad theres options out there and glad sig is thinking outside the box

 

[Trophied]

I haven't seen much information about it, but I wonder if it has been developed with True Velocity as the ammunition. Sure sounds like it, and that is definitely not reloadable. They supposedly are going to offer civilian products at some point in the not too distant future. Supposed to be all manner of benefits, and one obvious detriment - no reloading.

 

[DangerRanger]

Appears to actually be steel/brass. Other competitors for the contract are offering plastic cases. I can’t find a single picture of a steel/plastic only steel/brass.

http://soldiersystems.net/2019/12/1...-bolt-gun-and-caliber-sig-cross-277-sig-fury/

 

[dfrosch]

There's a pic of the cartridge in this link:
https://www.military.com/daily-news...mm-cartridge-armys-next-gen-squad-weapon.html

Don't know that it would work if made from brass - no neck.

 

[DangerRanger]

There's a pic of the cartridge in this link:
https://www.military.com/daily-news...mm-cartridge-armys-next-gen-squad-weapon.html

Don't know that it would work if made from brass - no neck.

Sig is competing against true velocity I think. I think all the offerings are 6.8x51 but nothing labeled sig fury has plastic on the case that I can find.

 

[Laurie]

Here's another link. The pics in its clearly show the composite case construction with a steel case-head and web section.

https://www.tactical-life.com/gear/ammo/277-sig-fury-hybrid-case-design/

Are we talking longer COALs than 2.26" here necessitating a complete platform change and vast outlays in replacing 5.56mm based weapons, ie breaching the longstanding cost barrier to any real cartridge design changes?

Historically, radical designs such as these haven't fared well in terms of military acceptance. (Or for that matter among sporting shooters either - cf the Remington Xtronic ignition system and the Austrian Voere VEC-91 caseless ammunition sporting rifle, both commercial lemons.)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voere_VEC-91

 

[fatelvis]

As soon as I read that the cartridge was constructed of plastic\steel construction, I lost interest. Why? Read my signature on every post. Lol

 

[DangerRanger]

Here's another link. The pics in its clearly show the composite case construction with a steel case-head and web section.

https://www.tactical-life.com/gear/ammo/277-sig-fury-hybrid-case-design/

Are we talking longer COALs than 2.26" here necessitating a complete platform change and vast outlays in replacing 5.56mm based weapons, ie breaching the longstanding cost barrier to any real cartridge design changes?

Historically, radical designs such as these haven't fared well in terms of military acceptance. (Or for that matter among sporting shooters either - cf the Remington Xtronic ignition system and the Austrian Voere VEC-91 caseless ammunition sporting rifle, both commercial lemons.)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voere_VEC-91

This is a 270 necked 308 case, it is not meant to replace the 5.56 IIRC

edit* it does appear to possibly be replacing 5.56... that will be a large change for small arms as it’s for sure going to be 308 length

 

[Laurie]

This is a 270 necked 308 case, it is not meant to replace the 5.56 IIRC

edit* it does appear to possibly be replacing 5.56... that will be a large change for small arms as it’s for sure going to be 308 length

Thanks for that advice. That creates the perfect Catch-22 though in military procurement. If the 5.56 (or equivalent size replacement) remains the primary use cartridge, it becomes a limited use / limited sales specialist number. There are some excellent existing conventional competitors around though in the 2.8-inch COAL size and I'd imagine the military would want many years of rigorous testing to ensure the Fury worked all the time, every time, and for a long time (both in storage and barrel life)

If intended to replace the 5.56 you come back again and again to the so far insurmountable cost barrier. Whatever new cartridge you adopt if in 7.62 length it sees wholesale weapons replacement at a cost of many billions at a time when the US has reduced military expenditure. If an issue for the USA, it is a yet bigger one for the USA's Nato partners who are even more cash-strapped and unwilling to increase budgets. Take Germany, the second richest Nato member in GDP rankings which still refuses to spend 2% of its GDP on military expenditure, and if recent reports in the British press are accurate is unable to supply every Bundeswehr soldier with a working rifle and has large (30-40%) shares of its vehicles, AFVs, aircraft (fixed and rotary wing) out of service due to repair and maintenance backlogs. Allegedly, it cannot keep trained and experienced pilots as their morale has slumped due to cost-based restrictions on flying hours. Such countries would do everything in their power to veto an 'unecessary' basic rifle platform change - there is still resentment against the US too for forcing the 7.62 on Nato and then changing to 5.56 before many nations had completed the first changeover.

 

[czim]

Color me intrigued...

 

[Zero333]

In my opinion, for the time being, this .277 SIG is strictly for the belt fed machine guns... and Commercial hunting rifles.

It could never replace the 5.56 due to cost alone. Never mind not being able to carry as much .277 sig ammo as 5.56

It will either be a big hit in the hunting world or a big flop. Let the games begin !

 

[Laurie]

It will either be a big hit in the hunting world or a big flop. Let the games begin !

History suggests big flop - we shooters are a pretty conservative bunch.

On the other side, I really can't see the military accepting it (even if it is currently 100% flaw-free) without years and years of testing, seeing how it stands up to long-term storage and being roughly handled in the field etc, etc. I've already seen comments by a metallurgist that steel abutting brass is a bad combination for corrosion. If that's true, it won't store well.

 

[46and2]

"I've already seen comments by a metallurgist that steel abutting brass "

Yes sir.
Dissimilar metals.
Galvanic corrosion.

 

[Zero333]

History suggests big flop - we shooters are a pretty conservative bunch.

On the other side, I really can't see the military accepting it (even if it is currently 100% flaw-free) without years and years of testing, seeing how it stands up to long-term storage and being roughly handled in the field etc, etc. I've already seen comments by a metallurgist that steel abutting brass is a bad combination for corrosion. If that's true, it won't store well.

SIG already stated it will release it commercially no matter what happens with the military testing. They say they've invested too much already into machinery among other things. They've already submitted the .277 SIG to SAAMI and should have the approval within the next handful of months.

This cartridge will be in such a small niche I can't see it being a hit either. For a Cartridge to be popular it has to be loaded and sold by other ammunition manufacturers. And this i can't see happening due to the brass.

Also, even if SIG has some "Special" barrels that resist erosion better than standard military bores, other rifle makers will not be buying their barrels just to chamber them in their rifles. The average barrel will wear out too quick for most folk to consider it a viable option.

The average deer hunter doesn't need a laser to humanely put down a deer. So the .277 SIG does indeed sound like it's gonna be a big flop.

 

[nicholst55]

The NGSW - both rifle and LMG, are not (currently) intended to replace every M4 and M249 in the inventory. The current plan, as I understand it, is to replace the 5.56mm weapons used by the Infantry, Cavalry, and Special Ops forces. While having two different caliber rifles and LMGs in the system would create a plethora of logistical problems, that was Big Army's plan the last time that I heard.

 

[RustyPin]

Just read the ballistics release on SIG's new cartridge. 135g projectile in a 16" barrel at 3000 fps. Looks interesting. But then notice the 80,000 psi chamber pressure.?!? I realize it utilizes a hybrid case to accommodate the high pressure. Am I wrong in assuming the handloader will limited to 6.8 SPC capabilities using cases made from brass?

FURY is exactly what the Army wanted for penetrating Body Armor. Neither the 7.62x51 or the 5.56 can penetrate and the FURY is not necessarily going "replace" anything. It serves a new purpose. The Army provided the projectile and said have at it boys. Whether anyone can make a firearm or a gun that will hold up to 80k psi is another story. Since it's SAAMI approved now it's not going anywhere. I'll take mine in 24" please, oh and along with two cases of Ammo.