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38 special cases resizing inconsistant

Wo


Wow...so based on performing a logical functional test, and not following conventional practices, you believe that I don’t what I’m doing!?

Your assumption is Correct.

You seem to not understand interior ballistics to start with. - Because you've done "something' with a semi-automatic pistol and gotten away with it, doesn't mean that it is "appropriate" for a situation where 38 special loads are being fired in a 357 magnum revolver.

NOW, - I'm not here to pick a fight, but you've continued this volley of posts to try to justify something that doesn't fall into place for the OP's situation which is 38 Special and a revolver. - And because I state to revert to a reloading manual on HOW to reload hand gun ammunition you take exception to it and feel its worth further pursuit obviously.

- Ron -
 
Your assumption is Correct.

You seem to not understand interior ballistics to start with. - Because you've done "something' with a semi-automatic pistol and gotten away with it, doesn't mean that it is "appropriate" for a situation where 38 special loads are being fired in a 357 magnum revolver.

NOW, - I'm not here to pick a fight, but you've continued this volley of posts to try to justify something that doesn't fall into place for the OP's situation which is 38 Special and a revolver. - And because I state to revert to a reloading manual on HOW to reload hand gun ammunition you take exception to it and feel its worth further pursuit obviously.

- Ron -

How do you monitor your crimping process to know if it’s delivering the desired outcome?
 
First, before I reload a batch of brass I check for OAL measuring with a caliper from case head to case mouth. - OAL is not super critical but I don't mix new brass with brass that has been fired several times. - So, I'm working with a "range" of uniformity in my brass for starters. Then I go through the steps of Sizing Clean brass, Priming, On Revolver brass (bullet dependent) I bell the mouth the appropriate amount to be able to seat & crimp bullets, Throwing Powder charges, then seat the bullet and I use a die that crimps as part of the seating operation.
So, to be a bit more specific, On a 500 S&W with a full house load (440 gr. Cast Gas-Check) I will run a "Heavy crimp" and the bullet actually has a crimp groove to facilitate a roll style crimp. Also after I've seated & crimped, I'm going to raise the Ram on the press and rotate the round in the shell holder approx. 90 degrees and then run the round back up one more time. - I'll inspect it with a magnifying glass when I set my dies up so that I can get a close visual look and insure that I'm achieving a good crimp. - The "acid test" is to fire 4 rounds of the 5 in the cylinder, then open the cylinder and pull the unfired round to inspect for bullet movement.
The example that I gave with a 500 S&W mag. is what I do with other Magnum revolver calibers. - Magnum revolver loads that are using large charges of ball powder rely heavily on a good heavy roll crimp to achieve uniform results (accuracy & velocity S/D).

Now, lets move on to the rimless cases that employ the taper style crimp. - As was stated by another member a good crimp for a semi-auto is also important. - The requirement to have pressure build and have uniform results is what we seek as well as to not have bullets be pushed deeper into the cases. - A taper crimp will not have the holding power that a heavy roll crimp has but it is more than sufficient for the ammunition it is used for (45 ACP, 40 S&W, 9mm, etc.) - Of the 3 die manufacturers that I've used (Redding, RCBS, & LEE) All have instructions on how to set up the crimp whether it be the taper crimp used for rimless type ammunition or the roll crimp which is employed on rimmed revolver ammo. - The taper crimp if the die is not set correctly can deform or start to buckle the brass if it is over crimping. Under crimping can be identified by not having bullets that "show" an image to some degree on the outer part of the case and the bullets may be looser than is desirable, so press the nose of a loaded round against the work bench top to see if bullet movement can be detected.

Crimp also is one of the steps that "feel" is acquired after loading hand gun ammunition. With practice one can tell if the crimps being applied are good and also a close visual inspection from time to time during the process of loading ammunition.

It is also one of the reasons I don't mix brass up or load 5 times fired brass with new or once fired brass, because the die for crimping and bullet seating most likely will not be optimally adjusted. - To keep from having to adjust bullet seater / crimp dies one can employ the use of shims under the die lock ring.

I've loaded hand gun ammunition for 50 years using a single stage press set up which surely is not as quick or efficient as the progressive machines do, but its all the same concept and the fact remains that we as reloader must know and understand the individual steps and our equipment that performs those steps to produce good quality ammunition that functions flawlessly though our hand guns (and rifles).


How do you monitor your crimping process to know if it’s delivering the desired outcome?

Through proper use of the dies, close inspection, and actual checks of an unfired round after being subjected to recoil from previously fired rounds. - Also, how well did the load perform, did it shoot accurately at my chosen range ?

My efforts in response are Not to belittle anyone, and I don't want to sound like an "old grouch" - I wouldn't have posted on the thread if I didn't have something of benefit to say. - Also, I don't consider myself as the be all for all expert. - I come here to learn and to share.

All The Best - Ron -
 
How do you monitor your crimping process to know if it’s delivering the desired outcome?
Depending on type I use a set of calipers. For a roll crimp i measure for less than case diameter. For taper crimp I look for case diameter down the length of the bullet shank in the case. The flared section should be the same diameter as where the mid and base of the bullet is in the case
 
What are the odds of having two bad resizing dies? The cases more often than not won't go into the rcbs die without a lot of force and two different lubes. The lyman does it too.

They look good but maybe there is some corrosion inside.

Tried some hunter specialty lead 158's, sns 158 .358 rn, 125 xtp's
.357, all with 231, and 146 wc with bullseye. None shot well.

Resized 30 cases and they all went in the cylinder ok. Quit trying because they went in so hard even with a rock chucker.

The .45 shot home cast bullets less than 2" at 25 yards using 231. Used a taper crimp die
Shot a lot of them and never had to trim a case. Maybe it is different with .38s since the case is thinner.
 
What are the odds of having two bad resizing dies?

I'd say slim - But check them for interior defects. - I'd say you have a way greater chance of having defective brass.
Have you tried NEW brass ? or Factory loads fired in your gun(s) & then attempted to size / load them ?

- Ron -
 
I've reloaded literally thousands of 38 specials and never had a problem using jacketed, swaged or cast bullets. Let's start with some basics:

1. Get a carbide sizing die - read the instructions before using - do not let the shell holder hit the end of the die - it might crack the carbide ring - turn the die down until it's barely touching the shell holder - on full stroke of the ram there must be a slight clearance between the shell holder and the die.

2. Fully run the ram up when sizing to achieve maximum sizing of the case length - make sure case is centered in the shell holder - don't rush it - slowly raise the ram allowing the case to center in the die.

3. I've used 231 for the 38 special for four decades - it's especially good for light jacket bullets i.e. 110 to 125 and swaged / cast bullets of any weight using light to moderate charges. When seating the bullet make sure it's centered in the slightly belled case. I've seen bullets seated off center that create a bulge on one side of the case. Make sure you're using the appropriate seating stem that aids in centering the bullet in the case.

4. Finished rounds must be crimped to prevent the bullet from moving forward in adjacent unfired chambers of a revolver and to assure uniform powder ignition. You can use a taper or roll crimp - the taper crimp works well for light target loads using wadcutters that are designed to be crimped over the end of the bullet. For other bullets with crimping grooves, a roll crimp works better.

You can set up your seating die to seat and roll crimp in one operation. The crimp is to be applied in the center of the crimping groove of the bullet. Don't over do it, a slight roll crimp is all that's needed - don't deform the lip of the case or create a bulge by over crimping. Take a look a some factory ammo - you'll be an idea of the degree of crimp appropriate.

5. The case head is solid so you may see some slight thickness decrease in the sized length of the case but this should not create any problems chambering the case. Inspect finished reloads for any bulges and investigate the cause.

6. The source of difficult chambering could be due to case length for rounds fired in a 38 special revolver but shouldn't be an issue with 38 special rounds fired in a 357 magnum revolver. It's a good idea to trim 38 special cases to a uniform length at the beginning to assure a uniform crimp. After that, it shouldn't be necessary to trim them unless you're shooting 38+P pressure loads but even with that I haven't had to trim even up to 25 reloadings of the case.

7. Inspect the chambers for build up carbon / lead if using lead bullets. Chambers should be periodically cleaned with a suitable solvent using a stiff bronze brush especially 38 special rounds fired in a 357 magnum revolver. I've fired literally thousands of 38 special rounds both jacketed and lead in my S&W Model 19, 357 magnum revolver and never had an problems with accuracy of function.

Hope the above is helpful to you.
 
There are a lot of good things mentioned to think about.
After resizing 100 or so they all chambered ok.

Got ahead of things and deprimed and belled the mouths. 1 out of the first 6 had trouble going in. Maybe it was too long and belled more than the others.

Threw about 10 away that were very difficult trying to size.
Maybe the crimp will take care of the belled mouth.
 
My efforts in response are Not to belittle anyone, and I don't want to sound like an "old grouch"............

By telling others that they need to "read the manual" repeatedly....you failed miserably at both!!!
I am trying hard to get what crimping {by and of itself} has to do with a case that wont go in the chamber all the way. Getting rid of the bell to start the bullet IS NOT necessarily "crimping" if you just make the case mouth straight again.
If the case is the correct length and crimping the mouth lets it go in all the way then there is a chamber problem and not a crimp/lack of reading the manual problem.
Resize a case, try it in clean chambers...if it wont go either the dies or the chambers have an issue.
 
By telling others that they need to "read the manual" repeatedly....you failed miserably at both!!!

Crimping was off topic, I'll agree with that, But telling them to "read the manual" whether repeatedly or not isn't a "fail" on my part as I see it.
And by the way that you've posted !!! I take it you have an "ax to grind" - If that be the case then lets get it ironed out in private, not here in the threads of the forum.

- Ron -
 
Under crimping can be identified by not having bullets that "show" an image to some degree on the outer part of the case and the bullets may be looser than is desirable

I don’t mean to hijack the thread, but can you go into more detail on this either in this thread or by PM. I think I understand what you’re saying but I’ve never heard this before and I’m interested in any technique that may improve my reloading, even if it is just a another way to check for proper amount of crimp.
 
I don’t mean to hijack the thread, but can you go into more detail on this either in this thread or by PM. I think I understand what you’re saying but I’ve never heard this before and I’m interested in any technique that may improve my reloading, even if it is just a another way to check for proper amount of crimp.

I've sent a P.M. to you sir.
 
Crimping was off topic, I'll agree with that, But telling them to "read the manual" whether repeatedly or not isn't a "fail" on my part as I see it.
And by the way that you've posted !!! I take it you have an "ax to grind" - If that be the case then lets get it ironed out in private, not here in the threads of the forum.

- Ron -

No axe to grind, and don't take it personal... I could honestly care less what just about everyone "thinks" on this or any other forum.
I do find it interesting that you can post in a very condescending way to others and the second someone calls your attention to it you deny and want to take it off line. Others should to have the decency to take what they say to you off line, but you tell someone repeatedly to "read the manual" for all to see. You don't see the problem with that, again I could care less. You are what you are and thank god you are not the teacher. Don't waste you time with some smart aleck comeback and have a nice life.
 
Oh well.

I've heard of shims under the case to make it sit higher to get die farther down on the case.
Also grinding down TOP of shell holder to allow the same.
Maybe I'd go to the s&w forum ....

Remember the interweb is A to Z on the answers to everything you don't need !.
Use your common sense.
 
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There are a lot of good things mentioned to think about.
After resizing 100 or so they all chambered ok.

Got ahead of things and deprimed and belled the mouths. 1 out of the first 6 had trouble going in. Maybe it was too long and belled more than the others.

Threw about 10 away that were very difficult trying to size.
Maybe the crimp will take care of the belled mouth.

ba_50

Lyman makes a type "M" expander that does not overwork the case mouth. All need to do is bump the case mouth on to step "B" and the bullets can be started straight into the case by hand. Oversized cast or coated bullets "may" need the case mouth pushed onto step "C" to help them start.

NOTE, the Lyman patient for the type "M" expander expired and now Redding is making their pistol expanders this way.

udv9J6k.jpg


Below you can see with a belled or flared case mouth the bullet can be started tilted. And the type "M" expander seats the bullets straight into the case and does not over expand the case mouth.

vwgkeH3.jpg


Below a Redding type "M" expander they now make.

WS3Kba4.jpg


Below Redding even makes a TiN, Titanium Nitride coated type "M" expander.

Qeoxsd7.jpg


Below a 9mm cartridge "before" taper crimping and you can see the case mouth is still flared. And this could cause the same problem you are having chambering your .38 cases.

pRVen2j.jpg


Below the same cartridge after taper crimping with the case mouth reduced in diameter.

MfcwIQB.jpg
 
Lee makes a Factory Crimp Die with a carbide ring in its base that will size bulged cases below the crimp. This is nothing more than a cheat for reloaders who do not trim their cases to the same length. Meaning the longer case can bulge below the crimp or on bulging cases that seated and crimped in the same operation and bulge the cases.

QMWa7Bx.jpg


Below a Lee Carbide Factory Crimp Die with a carbide ring in its base.

38_FCD.jpg
 
Lee makes a Factory Crimp Die with a carbide ring in its base that will size bulged cases below the crimp. This is nothing more than a cheat for reloaders who do not trim their cases to the same length. Meaning the longer case can bulge below the crimp or on bulging cases that seated and crimped in the same operation and bulge the cases.

QMWa7Bx.jpg


Below a Lee Carbide Factory Crimp Die with a carbide ring in its base.

38_FCD.jpg


Wow, despite how this thread may or may not have degraded; I too suffered from a bulge at the base of 38 special cases. More so when loaded with 148gr DEWC. Properly sized bullets and belled case mouths helped; but I'd still get an odd in here and there. Turns out the seating die wasn't supporting the brass and the force of seating in combination with a small sizer and the aforementioned issues. The Lee factory carbide crimp die resolved this by not only crimping; but also fixing the bulge at the base of the case.

I know we're a rifle shooter forum; but we do some pistol too. 45-70 could have the same problem as well as many straight walled cases. 38 shows up more by my guess that most dies are 357 Mag dies.

I also know that I typically won't respond to a thread when a simple Google of the question results in a direct answer; but in this instance I was caught by this problem too when I started out loading. I'm extra glad to see some good ideas and answers along the way.

-Mac
 
Below a Lyman type "M" expander for a .223 rifle, that aids in straight inline seating and reduces runout.

ohIUcpd.png


And the RCBS AR .223/5.56 dies have a taper crimp.

rlWf7Uw.jpg
 

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