Custom FL Dies - What company?

[Bc'z]

Why are you BR guys running bushing setups? I would have figured you'd have 2-3 custom dies configured with different neck diameters.

Admittedly I've only ever used Redding bushings (have Whiddens ordered as of tonight), but no matter what I do as far as bushing float/cleanliness/direction, I'll still end up with ~20% of my rounds showing more TIR than I'd like...and it's coming from the sizing operation.

Click adjusting ring aside, do the whidden dies do something different in the bushing area that the reddings don't do? Or are their bushings just that much better made?

Mike , @SPJ bought me my 1st Wilson bushing die for my 30-06, damn thing was so pretty I bought 1 for my 6five.
I still like the Redding i use for mama's rifle, but I like the Wilson's better.
Bruno's has Wilson bushings for $12 I believe.

 

[MikeMcCasland]

The dies are better made. Not even fair to compare really. I cant think of any br shooter that could win that doesnt use a fl bushing die. You get a good one (whidden or better) and theres no need to check runout

Interesting...

I've got some standard Whidden FL dies, so I know what you're talking about in terms of machining quality; difference between a Kia and a Rolls Royce. That said, if their bushings fit the reddings, it would stand to reason that any bushing die with a whidden bushing (or any concentric bushing) would produce straight ammo, no?

They're all setup to float the bushing, so provided it's not jacking with the body sizing, it's all kind of contingent on the bushing?

Do I have that right?

 

[Dusty Stevens]

Its not the bushing its the die. I use crt/whidden and redding bushings. No hesitation to use redding bushings.

 

[MikeMcCasland]

Its not the bushing its the die. I use crt/whidden and redding bushings. No hesitation to use redding bushings.

I believe you. I just don't understand..I guess the whiddens don't allow as much side-to-side play with the bushing?

Here's where I'm hung up....If the die is bored out to .5" in the bushing area (hypothetical numbers), and the bushings are .495 OD, then how does the die affect neck concentricity.

 

[JFrank]

That’s 5 thousand by my math, I don’t think mine is anywhere close to that much. Maybe I should measure

 

[MikeMcCasland]

That’s 5 thousand by my math, I don’t think mine is anywhere close to that much. Maybe I should measure

It's probably not .005...it's probably more like .002. I don't know...don't have a good way to measure the ID of a bushing die neck. With any of my Type-S dies, you put a bushing in there, float it about 1/8th turn, lock the ring down, and you hear the bushing rattle when you shake it.

The point I was trying to make is that the dies are inherently setup to allow the bushing to move freely...so why does machining of the die (in the neck area) really matter?

Again, not that I don't believe a Whidden bushing die would produce less run-out. It sounds like most BR guys are running bushing dies, and getting better results than I am.

Edit: Thinking this through a little more, they're probably running much tighter than .004 chamber neck clearance, and have their brass turned real thin. I'm guessing the fact they wouldn't be sizing ~.006" down in one step, and are working with substantially thinner material probably translates into much better concentricity numbers....just a guess though.

Edit 2: I'll go Whidden for the custom dies.

 

[XTR]

Whidden.

 

[Sandstorm]

I use Whidden almost exclusively.

 

[Ned Ludd]

My first questions would be what is the underlying cause of the TIR you're currently getting? What setup are you currently using that gives the occasional case with excessive runout? How much TIR do you consider excessive? I personally wouldn't be concerned about TIR of less than ~.003" (or greater), especially if you are running a no-turn neck chamber. This is likely because with the long tight freebores we typically use in F-TR, the side clearance of a no-turn neck chamber generally means the bullet will center itself with respect to the bore axis when you chamber a round and close the bolt.

Certainly an improperly set up sizing die, or one that has a defect, can be the cause of excessive runout. However, uneven case wall thickness will also cause runout over time as the cases "banana" more each time they are re-sized. In the olden days, shooters sometimes placed a notch or other mark on the base of the "banana'd" case so they could orient the mark/loaded round in the chamber with the same orientation in relation to the "banana" curve every time. It worked fairly well. In general, no re-sizing die on the planet will fix runout caused by uneven case wall thickness. Neco (the outfit that sells QuickLoad) sells a case wall thickness/concentricity gauge:

https://www.neconos.com/item/Concentricity-Wall-Thickness-and-Runout-Gauge-12

It's pricey, but so are custom resizing dies, especially if your current dies themselves aren't actually the cause of the TIR. Even the very best brands of brass currently available can have the odd case with non-uniform wall thickness. Just a thought.

 

[Alex Wheeler]

My experience with custom dies is, if you want it right, order a resize reamer and do do it yourself. Cheaper and less headache in the long run.

 

[MikeMcCasland]

My first questions would be what is the underlying cause of the TIR you're currently getting? What setup are you currently using that gives the occasional case with excessive runout? How much TIR do you consider excessive? I personally wouldn't be concerned about TIR of less than ~.003" (or greater), especially if you are running a no-turn neck chamber. This is likely because with the long tight freebores we typically use in F-TR, the side clearance of a no-turn neck chamber generally means the bullet will center itself with respect to the bore axis when you chamber a round and close the bolt.

Certainly an improperly set up sizing die, or one that has a defect, can be the cause of excessive runout. However, uneven case wall thickness will also cause runout over time as the cases "banana" more each time they are re-sized. In the olden days, shooters sometimes placed a notch or other mark on the base of the "banana'd" case so they could orient the mark/loaded round in the chamber with the same orientation in relation to the "banana" curve every time. It worked fairly well. In general, no re-sizing die on the planet will fix runout caused by uneven case wall thickness. Neco (the outfit that sells QuickLoad) sells a case wall thickness/concentricity gauge:

https://www.neconos.com/item/Concentricity-Wall-Thickness-and-Runout-Gauge-12

It's pricey, but so are custom resizing dies, especially if your current dies themselves aren't actually the cause of the TIR. Even the very best brands of brass currently available can have the odd case with non-uniform wall thickness. Just a thought.

Greg,

It's producing rounds that occasionally show ~.005-.007 TIR bullet runout (measured just before the ogive). This is unturned Lapua Palma brass shot out of a Panda & R700 chambered off the same reamer. Fired cases come out of the gun showing nothing more than neck thickness inconsistencies. This is the same behavior I'd seen previously from a different lot of Palma brass out of a a .308 barrel I had Bugholes chamber for me off one of their reamers.

I've played with the die and bushings in the past, and you can improve/worsen results by the amount of float, the orientation of the bushing, and the cleanliness of the bushing area...that said, it's generally my worst performing Type-S die (hence the order of Whidden bushings, and the desire to move to a non-bushing custom die long term).

To be fair, I'm not even necessarily trying to solve a problem I see on target. I'm trying to solve a problem on the bench, that can't do me any good on the line.

Regarding gauges, I like the Neco, but have a 21st Century.

 

[Richard Coody]

Even John whidden says a standard full length die sizes more concentric than a bushing die.

What i do is use the whidden full length sizing die and adjust final neck tension with a K&M mandrel kit. Gets me in the ones and twos with my 6br.

The 21st century hydroseater taught me a lot about consistent neck tension

If they make one in your caliber Harrells simi-custom dies are hard to beat. That is a bushing die. I still use the mandrel kit for final neck tension

 

[moondog]

Has anyone had Whidden make a sizing Die
in the last 2-5 months? Reason being, I'm also needing another custom made.
(stupid wild cat) I had one done this past spring---3 times. Dimensionally way wrong and gouging, not scratching brass. I would try them again if it's been straightened out.

 

[Mulligan]

Has anyone had Whidden make a sizing Die
in the last 2-5 months? Reason being, I'm also needing another custom made.
(stupid wild cat) I had one done this past spring---3 times. Dimensionally way wrong and gouging, not scratching brass. I would try them again if it's been straightened out.

I had a 7-08AI bushing resize die made off brass I sent them several months ago. The Dies I received are flawless. Perfect in every way.
CW

 

[moondog]

I had a 7-08AI bushing resize die made off brass I sent them several months ago. The Dies I received are flawless. Perfect in every way.
CW

Good to know. I may try again

 

[jimmymac]

My experience with a Whidden custom bushing die is nothing short of phenomenal, although I've heard of some complaints as evidenced right here. I sent them my reamer print and 3 pieces of 4x fired brass that had been neck sized only. After 4 firings, this brass was really tight in my chamber. Whidden used that brass to make me a bushing die than minimally sizes my cases all the way down, including diameter reduction at .200 line. I couldn't ask any more of this die. Perfect sizing and no clickers.

I know guys send them the reamer print only and they will make the sizing die from that, but they say right on their website that is not the ideal solution. They would rather have the fired brass to work from.

 

[moondog]

My experience with a Whidden custom bushing die is nothing short of phenomenal, although I've heard of some complaints as evidenced right here. I sent them my reamer print and 3 pieces of 4x fired brass that had been neck sized only. After 4 firings, this brass was really tight in my chamber. Whidden used that brass to make me a bushing die than minimally sizes my cases all the way down, including diameter reduction at .200 line. I couldn't ask any more of this die. Perfect sizing and no clickers.

I know guys send them the reamer print only and they will make the sizing die from that, but they say right on their website that is not the ideal solution. They would rather have the fired brass to work from.

View attachment 1137935

Just to clarify, 3 pieces 3x fired plus my Reamer print sent

 

[Alex Wheeler]

Thats true from the stand point of theres many gunsmiths out there and not all of them are cutting tight chambers. With a JGS reamer, I prefer to work off of the print. Especially in a bigger case like a 338 Lapua or 300 Norma where it may take 5+ firings to get the .2" line up to chamber size. If a guy has a fat chamber and you worked from the print, then you would just end up sizing the brass a little extra. Much better than not enough. Another issue is that not all cases work with the same numbers. The bigger and tougher the case, the smaller the sizing die needs to be compared to the chamber. .003" under is not gonna work on everything.

 

[jimmymac]

Just to clarify, 3 pieces 3x fired plus my Reamer print sent

Sorry to hear that. I'd be discouraged too. I ordered mine in last October. It took them 20 weeks to get it back to me, but mine was worth the wait. My neighbor bought one of their off the shelf BR dies and his experience was more like yours. I've seen the die in person. It showed up filthy and rough and was a case scratcher. Our experiences were polar opposite. Mine was clean as a whistle and all polished up. I'm happy with whoever it was they assigned my die to.

 

[moondog]

I will say their customer service was phenomenal. They bent over backwards to make it right, they just couldn't. I have older ones from them and seaters that are great. I ended up ordering a Warner die (still waiting) for this particular Cartridge. I kept the Seater die and am happy with it.