The buds gun shop RR remington timing

[Nature Boy]

One big consideration is always stocks. On some McMillan stocks unless it is for a Rem 700 or XP action you aren't going to get one of their stocks. Not the end of the world but those McMillans are oh so sweet.

I don’t know about that. If you want a upper end stock for your model 70 they are about the only one to talk to.

I got one of their Game Warden stocks inletted for my FNchester in 5 months where a Manners equivalent would have taken me 12 months from never

 

[Nick Caprinolo]

I have four Remington 700's. The bolt cocks the action and they all shoot good. In the process of building my 5th. My only complaint is the trigger on the newer ones. One was made in 1962 and although that trigger has been the subject of law suits and recalls, I never changed mine. That is the best trigger Remington ever made in my estimation.

I am not sure I understand what bolt timing even means. Never heard it mentioned until I joined the forum. I don't think anyone in my circle know what it means. I would think that if you had an action with a faulty bolt, you would call Remington and have it replaced. If you are buying an action, why even accept it if the bolt is faulty. Simply send it back for a replacement.

 

[Dusty Stevens]

I have four Remington 700's. The bolt cocks the action and they all shoot good. In the process of building my 5th. My only complaint is the trigger on the newer ones. One was made in 1962 and although that trigger has been the subject of law suits and recalls, I never changed mine. That is the best trigger Remington ever made in my estimation.

I am not sure I understand what bolt timing even means. Never heard it mentioned until I joined the forum. I don't think anyone in my circle know what it means. I would think that if you had an action with a faulty bolt, you would call Remington and have it replaced. If you are buying an action, why even accept it if the bolt is faulty. Simply send it back for a replacement.

Sometimes a company cant build it right to start with. Theres no reason to think the replacement will be different since the first one evidently met their specs so nothing could be wrong

 

[JimT]

Sometimes a company cant build it right to start with. Theres no reason to think the replacement will be different since the first one evidently met their specs so nothing could be wrong

Sounds like every US car manufacturer to me.

 

[ronsatspokane]

Action tolerances???

So on top of bolt handle extraction timing:
The tenon threads are usually out of whack and need to be chased, receiver face is never square, the trigger timing is always off, poorly machined factory recoil lug needs to be replaced, firing pin raceway contacts the pin and creates inconsistent drag, the firing pin spring is poor quality and should be replaced for faster lock time, the bolt lugs almost never have more than 50% contact on the abutments, etc...

I never said the 700 was a piece of junk, nor did I say they cant make a good base for a very accurate rifle, BUT there is a LOT of room for improvement. Improvements to get it right take time and money

I disagree. The last two Remington actions I've bought had far less than 50% lug contact. The rest I agree with.

The thing that really makes you scratch your head is how they could be so far off and so consistently far off. If every other manufacturer can make a better Remington 700 using "presumably" similar CNC machines, I wonder if Remington is using modern machines at all. The may be hammering these damn things on a forge and anvil.

 

[ronsatspokane]

I have four Remington 700's. The bolt cocks the action and they all shoot good. In the process of building my 5th. My only complaint is the trigger on the newer ones. One was made in 1962 and although that trigger has been the subject of law suits and recalls, I never changed mine. That is the best trigger Remington ever made in my estimation.

I am not sure I understand what bolt timing even means. Never heard it mentioned until I joined the forum. I don't think anyone in my circle know what it means. I would think that if you had an action with a faulty bolt, you would call Remington and have it replaced. If you are buying an action, why even accept it if the bolt is faulty. Simply send it back for a replacement.

That's the trouble with discussing these topics on a web site. Everyone has a different set of standards and expectations. Time was when this web site was more oriented toward competition level standards and expectations but it seems that a lot of hunters and casual shooters have found their way here. Many are unfamiliar with the issues or the problems they cause when seeking extreme precision. As far as sending it back, I have a story for ya:

Remington 700 action in varmint trim with a heavy barrel. Was planing on using it for F Class competition. After 6 months of trying to get it to shoot which included a new stock, bedding, bolt work, trigger replacement, barrel lapping, a couple of different higher end scopes and hours and hours of load development I finally got it to shoot 3/4 MOA (it was 2.5 MOA when I got it). Not good enough for F Class. I tried it in a few matches just to prove it to myself. Got my ass handed to me. Sent a nasty email to Remington about all the work I'd put into the rifle and how pissed I was. I asked them what kind of varmints they expected people to hunt with this rifle, horses within 200 yards? They replied and wanted me to send it to them with a sample target. I did that. They sent it back to me with a test target saying that they'd lapped the barrel and the rifle was within spec. Their test target? 1.5 MOA. Inch and a half at 100 yards. Twice as bad as what I'd had it shooting. That Rifle went down the road the next day.

Couple of months later a friend of mine was working part time to help out as a range master at a local range. Someone showed up with that very rifle (easy to spot as the stock was quite unique). He'd thrown a cheap Simmons scope on it and was raving about how accurate it was. My friend looked at what kind of groups he was getting. 2 MOA. Different standards and different expectations.

The Remington saga continues. Bought a single shot 700 action from a reputable midwest supplier. The action only and figured that Remington would not screw them by sending them shite. I would use it to build an F Class gun and play with a new caliber. I was wrong. That action only had 5% contact on one of the lugs. Just a scratch across it. The bolt timing was also the same as the last one with no primary extraction. I threw the action in the lathe, trued the face and the lug abutments, lapped the bolt so it had about 80% contact on both lugs, screwed a Remage barrel on it, threw a Timney trigger on it, tossed it into a cheap thumbhole stock for testing and bedded that. With factory ammo it was half MOA. With minimal load development it was (is) a 1/4 to 1/2 MOA gun on any given day. Have since upgraded the stock to a real F Class stock and I shoot it fairly regularly in competition. In competition the loads are usually hotter. Was having occasional problems with extraction. Finally had to send the action out and get the timing corrected. No problem since. Even though the gun now shoots, the time and money I put into that action would have come close to buying a custom action which would have eliminated all the work and the headaches. So that is what I did with the last action I bought. Picked up a BAT action. Even with all the work I put into the Remington there is no comparison, the BAT is so smooth and the tolerances are so much tighter than the Remington that it is laughable. Why Remington cannot do this with modern CNC machines like BAT uses is beyond me. I wonder if they have not updated the machine shop since the 60's and cut costs by firing the people who did the manual fitting or if they use their tooling until it breaks or it wouldn't cut cheese let alone metal. One thing is for sure, the New York private equity firm (Cerberus Capital Management) that owns them has no pride in the product they produce. They appear to be using it as a cash cow relying on its past reputation and some marketing to keep the cash flowing.

 

[PRR1957]

A



A CNC machine does not "magically" produce correct parts! Its only as good as the operator running it..............And there is a lack of skilled machinists out in the work force.

Yep. CNC operators for the most part are just what I typed “operators” not machinists. But this is not their fault. At most trade schools now a days, only CNC programing and operation is taught. Not much about teaching of manual machining. To most CNC operators their first indication of a problem is if the dull cutter or drill breaks or the work piece goes flying out of the fixture.

 

[antelopedundee]

I disagree. The last two Remington actions I've bought had far less than 50% lug contact. The rest I agree with.

The thing that really makes you scratch your head is how they could be so far off and so consistently far off. If every other manufacturer can make a better Remington 700 using "presumably" similar CNC machines, I wonder if Remington is using modern machines at all. The may be hammering these damn things on a forge and anvil.

Someone once told me that he complained to the head honcho at Kimber about the shitty stock on one of their rifles and the guy told him that "if it came from here it's good enough". Must be the Remington mantra as well.

 

[shortgrass]

Yep. CNC operators for the most part are just what I typed “operators” not machinists. But this is not their fault. At most trade schools now a days, only CNC programing and operation is taught. Not much about teaching of manual machining. To most CNC operators their first indication of a problem is if the dull cutter or drill breaks or the work piece goes flying out of the fixture.

The CNC lathes and mills I set-up and occasionally operate have 2 Amp meters. I can see at a glance how hard the machine is working, which in turn will tell me about cutting tool condition. The CNCs are far over hp than a manual machine, so you can't hear the motor bog down. If you can, you have serious problems and the machine will shut itself off. Speeds and feeds can and do effect size, as does insert (cutter) selection. Speeds and feeds are pretty much dictated by the programmer. (I can change those and give a good reason 'why', if I find it necessary to do so). All the things that can and will effect the final product on a manual machine can and will effect the final product coming of of a CNC. Tooling and tool holders, over hang of tool holders, speeds and feeds, work holding, it all figures in. Some CNCs that are equipped with a 'probe' can even check the part for size after the cutting is complete, and record the results. If the part is out of tolerance, the machine will shut itself down until corrections are made. The problem I can see with the the big arms makers is, does it meet current design specs and tolerances set forth by the engineering dept. To a point, the engineering dept. is at the mercy of the accounting dept., until it comes down to the safety/liability of the product. It is absolutely true though, that the US suffers from a "skills shortage". There are far, far fewer 'thinking' workers out there than there was 40yrs ago. What a CNC has over a manual machine is speed. it moves faster in the "non-cutting" mode than any human possibly can, and electrical/mechanical repeatability that few humans can duplicate.

 

[urbanrifleman]

If I got a Remington 700 that shot 2.5 minute, I would assume it was possessed by demons and flip at the next gun show at a loss, and never touch it again except to put it on the table to sell it cheap.

Like buying an exploded small block to build into a race car motor. Ummm nope. Bad idea. Something other than "machining tolerances" going on there brutha.

 

[Nick Caprinolo]

One thing is for sure, a Remington is no Bat or Panda. I will, in the future, build on a first class action. The cost of having a good gunsmith do the necessary work, to have a first class action, will bring the costs up to a comparable custom action and most likely still leave something to be desired.

I am not a competitive shooter, unless you count competing with five old farts, who shoot together every week. They have banned me from shooting my Stolle Panda 6 PPC. That being said, I have an off the shelf Remington 22-250, with no modifications except for the new stock, that constantly shoots 3/8 inch groups and many 1/4 groups. Does a Remington operate as smoothly as a custom action? Never going to happen unless you were to reline the action itself.

Yes, most of the folks on this forum are very serious shooters, who can afford to buy first class equipment and not the average Joe, who will never even go to a match as an observer. Stellar performance, is not something, they will ever attain.

My question is, why are we even having this conversation? Seems to me that the quality of shooters here, know the downfalls of off the shelf actions and would stick to custom actions. Had I put more thought into my present build, I would have certainly gone in a different direction. Remington does not cater, to the class of shooters, that frequent this forum. Still many of you continue to try them and then are dissatisfied. That's our problem, not Remington's. Remington's sales model is directed towards the hunting world where a one inch group is good enough to get a one shot kill. Trying to compete at 1,000 yards with a Remington, is not something they ever had in mind, when machining actions, nor is 1/4 inch groups at 100 yards.

 

[shortgrass]

If I got a Remington 700 that shot 2.5 minute, I would assume it was possessed by demons and flip at the next gun show at a loss, and never touch it again except to put it on the table to sell it cheap.

Like buying an exploded small block to build into a race car motor. Ummm nope. Bad idea. Something other than "machining tolerances" going on there brutha.

Couldn't be that Remingtons' hammer forged barrels are trash, could it?

 

[hogpatrol]

One thing is for sure, the New York private equity firm (Cerberus Capital Management) that owns them has no pride in the product they produce. They appear to be using it as a cash cow relying on its past reputation and some marketing to keep the cash flowing.

Just a clarification, Cerberus Capital Management hasn't owned or controlled any part of Remington since they came out of bankruptcy in 2018. Ownership was transferred to their creditors.

 

[carlsbad]

I buy all my remington actions from Buds. California friendly, best prices, and the action-only actions seem better fit and finish than those on rifle blowout sales at discount stores.

Minor truing, a PTG bolt, side bolt release and it will compete with a custom action for a lot less money.

 

[urbanrifleman]

Couldn't be that Remingtons' hammer forged barrels are trash, could it?

This is my pdog gun. I have all these rifles. Fancy barrels, etc, etc my pdog gun has a bone stock Remington barrel.

I bought that gun at Cabelas it was a bone stock stainless SPS varmint. Threw away the stock and stuck it in my old laminate. Bought it for my ex wife. She never shot it. Had Stick (used to work with Speedy) make it a 223a with a tiny setback. I let the kids and my ex girlfriend shoot 1000s of rounds through it. Never cleaned it. Would go to the July 4th party and set down 200 rounds of ammo and let the kids shoot it.

Scoped the barrel. Still looks amazing. I mean this Remington barrel looks really dang good. Added a Tubb brake, squared the action, and straightened the stupid scope mounts (way crooked), and it still shoots the crap out of 50 tnts at 3850. Killed several last month at 525 and murdered dozens at 400 plus. Hundreds at 250 ish.

True story.

 

[Ledd Slinger]

I buy all my remington actions from Buds. California friendly, best prices, and the action-only actions seem better fit and finish than those on rifle blowout sales at discount stores.

Minor truing, a PTG bolt, side bolt release and it will compete with a custom action for a lot less money.

Hmmmm. I dont know about that. If doing all your own work, that might be slightly true if you dont consider your own time worth anything.
If suggesting anyone can have it done by a gunsmith, that statement is absolutely FALSE.

Action: $350-$400
Complete PTG bolt: $240-$350
Side bolt release installed: $100
True action and lugs: $200-$300
True factory recoil lug: $40

Total: $930 to $1190 depending on the bolt you buy and who you have do the work.

Then if running a SRP cartridge with hot loads, you better get the firing pin turned and bushed or you'll run the risk of blowing primers. That's another $100.....

Could have had one very nice custom action for the same price or less. All those

Will a 700 compete with a custom? Yeah its possible on a good day. But will it be as nice or as strong or come competition ready to rock out of the box? No, absolutely not.

Again...it takes time and money.
Why waste all that time and that amount of money when you can buy a full custom action? I guess a person can lead a horse to water, but they cant make it drink

 

[shortgrass]

This is my pdog gun. I have all these rifles. Fancy barrels, etc, etc my pdog gun has a bone stock Remington barrel.

I bought that gun at Cabelas it was a bone stock stainless SPS varmint. Threw away the stock and stuck it in my old laminate. Bought it for my ex wife. She never shot it. Had Stick (used to work with Speedy) make it a 223a with a tiny setback. I let the kids and my ex girlfriend shoot 1000s of rounds through it. Never cleaned it. Would go to the July 4th party and set down 200 rounds of ammo and let the kids shoot it.

Scoped the barrel. Still looks amazing. I mean this Remington barrel looks really dang good. Added a Tubb brake, squared the action, and straightened the stupid scope mounts (way crooked), and it still shoots the crap out of 50 tnts at 3850. Killed several last month at 525 and murdered dozens at 400 plus. Hundreds at 250 ish.

True story.View attachment 1132660

Remingtons' barrels are luck of the draw, just like getting an action with positive extraction timing. I recently took a barrel off of a Custom Shop rifle. It looked like file inside and collected copper about like a mill bastard file would..

 

[hogpatrol]

My 2¢, Hard to beat a Kelbly's Atlas, either version. Comes with double pinned 1/4" recoil lug and a pinned rail. I'd bet if one had to pay for all the upgrades on a Remington, they'd be in to it for more than the Atlas.

Edit, one advantage of the Atlas is the mechanical ejector which allows one to easily use the Wheeler method of finding the lands.

 

[carlsbad]

Hmmmm. I dont know about that. If doing all your own work, that might be slightly true if you dont consider your own time worth anything.
If suggesting anyone can have it done by a gunsmith, that statement is absolutely FALSE.

Action: $350-$400
Complete PTG bolt: $240-$350
Side bolt release installed: $100
True action and lugs: $200-$300
True factory recoil lug: $40

Total: $930 to $1190 depending on the bolt you buy and who you have do the work.

Then if running a SRP cartridge with hot loads, you better get the firing pin turned and bushed or you'll run the risk of blowing primers. That's another $100.....

Could have had one very nice custom action for the same price or less. All those

Will a 700 compete with a custom? Yeah its possible on a good day. But will it be as nice or as strong or come competition ready to rock out of the box? No, absolutely not.

Again...it takes time and money.
Why waste all that time and that amount of money when you can buy a full custom action? I guess a person can lead a horse to water, but they cant make it drink

Ledd,
I certainly have nothing against a custom action, I barrel more of them than R700s. but I enjoy making an R700 nice.

I agree with most of your pricing. I'd replace rather than true the lug. I buy lugs from boltfluter, I think they were $25 to $30 when I ordered a lot of them.

The one price I disagree with is truing the action. If I install a PTG bolt, I'll true the lugs and boltface for a little of nothing. New actions don't need their threads trued.

So I get the following:

Action: $350
Complete PTG bolt: $231
Bolt hardware: $100
Side bolt release installed: $100
True action and lugs: $inc
New recoil lug: $25
Labor $150
$946

Sell your remington bolt for $150 Brings your cost down to $800.

The big advantage of spending the money on a custom action is resale value.

--Jerry

 

[ronsatspokane]

Just a clarification, Cerberus Capital Management hasn't owned or controlled any part of Remington since they came out of bankruptcy in 2018. Ownership was transferred to their creditors.

Maybe someone will buy them. I would never expect a factory Remington to approach the tolerances or finish level of a custom action even though it could be done with modern CNC machines and quality tooling. But I do expect the product to be built according to the design documents which would include primary extraction and bolt lugs that actually make contact.