VV lot to lot consistency

[XTR]

As they say, timing is everything. In my rather turbulent life I failed to notice until it was too late to go back that I was running out of the lot of N150 I've been running for the last 4 yrs... And tonight I need to start loading the ammo that I am shooting at the FCNC and the only way that happens is with a new lot...uh oh.

Went this evening and ran two 10 shot strings across the chrono, and the difference in average velocity between lots is get this 0.5 feet per second.

Color me happy.

Edit: both of the lots are from 2015, I don't know how this test would turn out if I'd tested a 2015 lot and a 2018 lot, but it's still really nice to get the same results from different lots.

 

[ShootDots]

As they say, timing is everything. In my rather turbulent life I failed to notice until it was too late to go back that I was running out of the lot of N150 I've been running for the last 4 yrs... And tonight I need to start loading the ammo that I am shooting at the FCNC and the only way that happens is with a new lot...uh oh.

Went this evening and ran two 10 shot strings across the chrono, and the difference in average velocity between lots is get this 0.5 feet per second.

Color me happy.

Now that they have re-done their entire line of powders so that they are temp-INsensitive, along with their legendary penchant for extreme lot-to-lot consistency and clean burning characteristics, I think VV just hit a Grand Slam!

 

[Ned Ludd]

As they say, timing is everything. In my rather turbulent life I failed to notice until it was too late to go back that I was running out of the lot of N150 I've been running for the last 4 yrs... And tonight I need to start loading the ammo that I am shooting at the FCNC and the only way that happens is with a new lot...uh oh.

Went this evening and ran two 10 shot strings across the chrono, and the difference in average velocity between lots is get this 0.5 feet per second.

Color me happy.

0.5 fps???!!! You'd better get busy and re-work that load from scratch!

I've always believed I need an "equipment manager" so these kinds of things don't ever happen. Nonetheless, it's always great when they work out in your favor. Good luck at FCNCs, Wade!

 

[Medic505]

This will all change when you get the 2018 version of N-150. It's hotter.

 

[Medic505]

2018 N150 44.2 grains

 

[Medic505]

2015 44.7 N150

 

[XTR]

Dean, I can live with that, and I'm noting it because I only have one more unopened 2015 jug so I'll be ordering more this winter.

I switched to N150 when I was playing with 215s. I switched lots of H4350 and lost 75FPS between lots. You can't fix that in a 308 case.

 

[Medic505]

I just wanted to give you a heads up so when you get the 2018 lot, bad things won't happen.

 

[XTR]

thanks

 

[Laurie]

Now that they have re-done their entire line of powders so that they are temp-INsensitive,

Have they done the range? Apart from N565 which was new formulation from day one, I've yet to see anything from Nammo / Vihtavuori as to which powders (if any) have been changed.

 

[XTR]

Laurie,if I recall correctly there was a comment on this site from @barefooter56 that noted that N150 was reformulated to improve temp stability and added a decoppering agent. His post indicated that the whole like was getting it eventually.

 

[avidflyer]

Dean, I can live with that, and I'm noting it because I only have one more unopened 2015 jug so I'll be ordering more this winter.

I switched to N150 when I was playing with 215s. I switched lots of H4350 and lost 75FPS between lots. You can't fix that in a 308 case.

?? did u mean 4350 or 4895? never seen h4350 in a 308...(doesnt mean any) or just h4350 in general

 

[Medic505]

h4350 in a 308

Many things are possible with a tall enough drop tube.....

 

[XTR]

I've experimented with a lot of slower powders and 215 hybrids trying to find a setup that I thought was more reasonable peak pressures for the velocities we want (I also have a Pressure Trace system)

In 2013-2015 I was playing with a long throated barrel (230ish freebore) with 215s and H4350 in WW brass. I had a load that shot flatline at 2550 with 47.5gr of H4350, but when I changed lots and the MV dropped from 2550 to 2465 there just wasn't room in the case to get back to where I was.

 

[ShootDots]

Have they done the range? Apart from N565 which was new formulation from day one, I've yet to see anything from Nammo / Vihtavuori as to which powders (if any) have been changed.

On their web-site they list them ALL... And one of our shooters in AZ has tested N150 from winter to summer with excellent results as far as temp stability goes. He is using it in his .308 for F-T/R..

 

[Laurie]

On their web-site they list them ALL...

Where? I've been laboriously working my way through all the individual powder characteristics descriptions and there are one or two pretty broad references to temperature stability, but nothing at all in this aspect for most.

In the introductory / overview blurb to the rifle powders, there is among the list of attributes:

⇒They’re extremely temperature stable
Temperature stability in powders has always been a consideration, but with the recent improvements in Long Range shooting, it has become a factor of major concern to shooters. Firing at long ranges places greater demands on ammo, equipment and the shooter himself. Enabling a shooter to meet these demands means refining the process, and eliminating those variables which reduce hit probability. The production of increasingly temperature insensitive propellants allows for greatly reduced Extreme Spreads and Standard Deviation, which translates directly to less vertical dispersion on target.

Every propellant manufacturer I can think of has made the broad claim that "our products are extremely temperature stable" for years .... and that includes manufacturers and some of their grades that have been anything but!

I saw a former Capstone employee say in a post on this forum maybe 18 months back that it was a great trial to Capstone that Viht won't get up and shout about what they've been doing in this respect over the last few years risking the impression they're being left behind by competitors. (Also, no fancy marketing name like 'Extreme' or 'TZ' .... but he didn't say that!) I'd just like to know which grades have 'changed' and if so by how much. Do any enhancements apply to both N100 and 500 ranges and if that's a 'yes' do they apply equally?

The other product enhancement that all manufacturers are chasing - decoppering / anti-fouling does merit a large section of the website including before and after treatment 30-06 bore photos taken after 50 and 100 rounds. Why not temperature stability too if there is a significant across the board improvement?

N150 has always been a very stable grade and it is one of the few where temperature gets a mention in the the website's more detailed description, and as far as I can see the only one whose description suggests a reformulation / enhancement:

Combining Vihtavuori’s latest decoppering technology and enhanced temperature stability, N150 is a tremendously versatile powder with a lot of options even for the demanding handloader.

Don't get me wrong. I'm a great Viht fan and very heavy user of some grades, especially N150/160/165 and their performance and lot to lot consistency is and always has been excellent. (I've used N160 since it was introduced onto the UK market in 1985 many years before any Viht products were exported to the US. That's getting on for 35 years of satisfied continuous use.) I'd just like a bit of clarity here, and I'm sure I'm not alone.

 

[Lefty Trigger]

I have been considering trying these powders and you guys are helping me spend more money....

 

[ShootDots]

@Laurie The way I read it>>>>and maybe it's "wishful thinking" BUT I read it as all of them. Maybe I am wrong>>>>hopefully not!

 

[Laurie]

@Laurie The way I read it>>>>and maybe it's "wishful thinking" BUT I read it as all of them. Maybe I am wrong>>>>hopefully not!

I hope you're right too Benjamin. That's encouraging word from your FTR shooting friend re N150 in Arizona. What's a typical winter to summer temperature range down there? We see around 30-deg C (~85F) here in England between extremes, but it's very rare get to the higher values to produce as big a figure as that.

(Having said that, I shot an F match on Sunday in extreme heat by our standards of nearly 30C/86F in the shade - only there wasn't any, so hotter on the firing line - on a range that usually struggles to break 21C/70F in high summer. To be honest I didn't even think about any temperature effect on my 284 N165 load, and in the event didn't see any effects.)

 

[ShootDots]

Typical winter to summer is about oh say 38-45 degrees Fahrenheit in the morning in the winter and maybe 65-70 in the afternoon to 80-85 degrees in the morning during the summer to about 105-110 by the time the match is over. This is a very substantial swing! If (and this is a BIG if) IF they are as temp stable as the new Alliant RL-16 /23, the new VV powders will have no peer anywhere!