I have a question for the SB F-class group...Why have rules not been modified to include mag feed for just the F-class rifles? The popularity of Rimfire competition is exploding right now. The advent of extreme high-end repeater rifles is growing. Our local club can have upwards of 40 shooters show up for our rimfire matches, NRL22, Marksman, Vudoo 22lr Series and ABRA bench. We are looking to add SB-F class to our line up. Problem we have is a lot of the mag feed rifles will NOT single feed! I am thinking if the NRA or American Smallbore Shooting wants to try and build numbers they really should look at modifying it. NRL22 has caused a growth in PRS style 22 matches all over the nation.
Smallbore F Class Rules
- Thread starter Mark Self
- Start date
I would like to weigh in on this discussion. SB-F is a discipline which requires extreme precision and accuracy. This includes internal and external ballistics, weather conditions, wind, etc. Semi-autos, while well suited for shoot and scoot disciplines, may find it more difficult to compete among the many "benchrest style" bolt guns. Therefore, the need for quick semi-auto fire is not necessary and hence single load rule is imposed. Using a semi-auto in SB-F would be equivalent to using a bolt gun for Shoot and Scoot competitions. Specific competitions require specific types of guns with specific rules. Think of it as another excuse to buy another gun if you don't have a good bolt gun.
Well semi-auto's is not what I was talking about, but while we are on that subject I am pretty sure there are some guys with the Auto Bench Rest Association that would highly disagree with the accuracy of the 2019 version of 10/22 on the market! What I am talking about are guys like me who have Ultra High-end Bench rest accurate bolt action 22 repeater. Yes those are everywhere now and are not a Unicorn (Vudoo Gun Works). I don't want buy a separate rifle when I have one that already holds a sub moa group at 100M. I am saying with a small rule change you can Open up a whole new breed of new shooters to help save the dying side of the NRA smallbore. NRA Nationals 13 F-class shooters and ASSA Nationals 8 F-class shooters..Those numbers are horrible for National events with the Rimfire shooting exploding in the USA. We avg 20 shooters on Thursday night Marksman matches (prone only, bag and bipod) and we are just a small area in South Texas. Accuracy required to win that match, will your rifle split a cards,match sticks, tooth picks and paper targets 40 to 50 yards and all our target are way smaller then sub moa. Think of Benchrest target shot under short Time of 90 seconds! RimFire shooting since I started in 2016 has jumped 1000% and yet disciplines like NRA SmallBore are dying on the vine! I have to say the American Smallbore Shooting group is really doing a great job in trying to save it and at least they answer emails and phone calls unlike another organization! I wish them all the luck and would love to start F-SB in our area under their banner! But we have to figure out how to adapt!
I hear ya I looked all over to see if tikka made a single shot follower and doesn’t seem like they do. I did get a Vudoo and they have one that screws to the bottom of the action. I will probably soon be buying another one for my son so he can shoot with me and be able to make the national event since it is held during the summer and not during the school year.
Marks_a18138,
Thank you for starting this discussion regarding F-SBR rules.
You have brought some interesting perspectives to the current trends in smallbore rifle competition and the steep climb in popularity of precision magazine fed rifles such as those from Voodoo Gun Works and several others.
I went back and read the ASSA F-SBR rules regarding loading (ref: Section 17.3.1.6 and Section 5.2), which reads:
It is true that the rifle actions use for the prone and position disciplines are designed on the single loading platform vs magazines. The logic is that the additional rigidity by not having the cut out in the bottom of the action provided a significantly higher level of accuracy. Time as advanced, as well as new magazine fed rifles that may prove this logic has gone by the wayside.
With that said, I guess one question I have is what would be the proposed loading process? Would it be that any rifle w/ a removable magazine be able to be fully loaded and utilized? Would it be that the magazine would be in place to facilitate loading and each cartridge single loaded? Other process?
Overall, I believe this is a good discussion that certainly warrants further consideration. I will be taking this topic to our F-SBR competitors and the other ASSA leaders for additional discussion. Ultimately, we may be able to reach a common ground that we would be able to incorporate into the rule book for 2019. As an organization run by shooters for shooters, we are always accessible for discussion on such topics.
F-SBR is certainly a great discipline that is growing with a significant appeal to a wide-cross section of shooters. ASSA is fully supportive in growing F-SBR competition in the United States, including having this discipline as part of our National Championships starting in 2018. I agree that it was somewhat disappointing that we only had 8 competitions this year, however I was subsequently informed that we had lost 5 competitors due to military commitments. (To those who serve, it is with our sincere appreciation and respect for all that you do and the sacrifices that you make to protect our nation!) For this year's F-SBR events, we paid out over $1600 in cash and over $2000 in additional prizes. Hopefully, our championships will continue to grow and expand in 2019!)
With regarding to running F-SBR matches under ASSA consideration, please send me a PM with your contact information and I will respond in kind. I have a few ideas that I would like to pass along that may foster additional discussions regarding upcoming matches.
In closing, if anyone is interested in F-SBR competition, please provide your input via this thread. Creative solutions are out there, they just need to be brought to the table.
Thank you for your pending input and patience.
Best Regards,
Ken
ASSA Secretary/Treasurer
Thank you for starting this discussion regarding F-SBR rules.
You have brought some interesting perspectives to the current trends in smallbore rifle competition and the steep climb in popularity of precision magazine fed rifles such as those from Voodoo Gun Works and several others.
I went back and read the ASSA F-SBR rules regarding loading (ref: Section 17.3.1.6 and Section 5.2), which reads:
17.3.1.6.For all events, rifles will be single loaded per Section 5.2.
5.2. Single Loading
Before moving forward, it is often good to look back to understand the intent of why certain rules are generated. In this instance, the above (and variants) were via the smallbore prone and position disciplines. Portions of the rules were subsequently adapted for the F-Class smallbore (F-SBR) discipline.5.2. Single Loading
5.2.1. In all events, the rifle will be loaded with only one cartridge at a time. Magazines or clips are not allowed to be loaded with cartridges, but may be used to facilitate single loading of the rifle.
It is true that the rifle actions use for the prone and position disciplines are designed on the single loading platform vs magazines. The logic is that the additional rigidity by not having the cut out in the bottom of the action provided a significantly higher level of accuracy. Time as advanced, as well as new magazine fed rifles that may prove this logic has gone by the wayside.
With that said, I guess one question I have is what would be the proposed loading process? Would it be that any rifle w/ a removable magazine be able to be fully loaded and utilized? Would it be that the magazine would be in place to facilitate loading and each cartridge single loaded? Other process?
Overall, I believe this is a good discussion that certainly warrants further consideration. I will be taking this topic to our F-SBR competitors and the other ASSA leaders for additional discussion. Ultimately, we may be able to reach a common ground that we would be able to incorporate into the rule book for 2019. As an organization run by shooters for shooters, we are always accessible for discussion on such topics.
F-SBR is certainly a great discipline that is growing with a significant appeal to a wide-cross section of shooters. ASSA is fully supportive in growing F-SBR competition in the United States, including having this discipline as part of our National Championships starting in 2018. I agree that it was somewhat disappointing that we only had 8 competitions this year, however I was subsequently informed that we had lost 5 competitors due to military commitments. (To those who serve, it is with our sincere appreciation and respect for all that you do and the sacrifices that you make to protect our nation!) For this year's F-SBR events, we paid out over $1600 in cash and over $2000 in additional prizes. Hopefully, our championships will continue to grow and expand in 2019!)
With regarding to running F-SBR matches under ASSA consideration, please send me a PM with your contact information and I will respond in kind. I have a few ideas that I would like to pass along that may foster additional discussions regarding upcoming matches.
In closing, if anyone is interested in F-SBR competition, please provide your input via this thread. Creative solutions are out there, they just need to be brought to the table.
Thank you for your pending input and patience.
Best Regards,
Ken
ASSA Secretary/Treasurer
I haven’t looked at one first hand, what about the V22 makes it so hard to load single shot? I know the old 40x wasn’t as easy as an Anschutz, but they worked just fine for a long time. My 54 is super easy to load, even in the shoulder. I have a CLE practice upper that is tougher to do so, but still not unbearable. Curious as to the issue.
T
Vudoo gun works makes a single shot follower for their action..you can go to their website and order one I will know how well it works hopefully in a week or so.
I believe it may be a case where the magazine is positioned in such a way that single loading is difficult. Looking at the action itself, it appears that dropping a round into the action should be easy, but alignment to the chamber w/o a loading ramp makes chambering a round a challenge.
This is strictly from looking at the action photos on the Vudoo web site. I would appreciate if the Vudoo owners can elaborate on the issue.
Best Regards,
ken
ASSA Secretary/Treasurer
This is strictly from looking at the action photos on the Vudoo web site. I would appreciate if the Vudoo owners can elaborate on the issue.
Best Regards,
ken
ASSA Secretary/Treasurer
I find this discussion interesting and well worth the time. I would encourage consideration of a rule change to allow for additional types of loading configurations. We have come a long way in rifle development and need to ensure that our rules keep up with the times. F-Class is not only about accurate rifles but allowing for competition by individuals who, like myself, were not able to compete in traditional prone or 3-p competition. A Full-Bore competition shooter from Canada, George Farquharson started F-Class in the 1990s in his elder years when his eyes aged to where he could not shoot accurately using iron sights. We, as a community, have incorporated SB-F into the mix. It only makes sense to look at the rules from the shooter's perspective and update them to accommodate current state of the art. I think ASSA is doing a good job and should lead the way.
If you go to their website and look under accessories it is there..it actually attaches to the action and does not sit down into the mag..I am technically challenged otherwise I would post everything.
Found it!
Quick link for those who are interested:
https://vudoogunworks.com/product/single-shot-follower-insert-aluminum/
Thank you!
Ken
ASSA Secretary/Treasurer
Quick link for those who are interested:
https://vudoogunworks.com/product/single-shot-follower-insert-aluminum/
Thank you!
Ken
ASSA Secretary/Treasurer
As someone who has shot F-Class for 20 years (centerfire only so far) I fail to see the necessity to change FC rules to accommodate repeating actions. I am sure some genius can come up with a modification to allow various repeaters to be loaded with only one round at a time. Change the rifle parts, not the rules.
If there are adapters readily available, that is certainly a valid point that will be under consideration. Again, the best practice that ASSA will follow is to gather input and research before making any decisions on rule changes.
Thank you for your thoughts.
Best Regards,
Ken
ASSA Secretary/Treasurer
I wish I had the ability to make the Bob sled type mags for different 22rf.. I think they would sell like hot cakes.
I don’t see an issue with having a repeater as long as there is a time restriction between shots fired. I have a 1975 match 54, an H&R M12 and a Vudoo V22. Everyone of these rifles shoots great for me. The vudoo is by far the smoothest action of the group. I say let them run magazines as long as the rules are fair and equal. But I also have not competed in SB Fclass yet. Accuracy is the key to Winning these along with the ability to shoot and read conditions. I know at 100 yards my vudoo will shoot 10 shots of a bipod pretty consistently inside a 1” orange dot pretty boringly. And no I am not sponsored or affiliated with vudoo. But it would be used in SB F if I had time to shoot in these events.
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