Only 4 firings on this brass, but I'll run an inside neck reamer through some and see if I get anything.
Bullet weld
- Thread starter RetiredArmy
- Start date
Brians356
Gold $$ Contributor
Here's my only experience that at least suggests the phenomenon could happen:
I loaded some 270 Win using Win brass and Nosler 140 BTs, zero bullet jump (just touching), WLR primer, 58.4 grs RL-22. That's a stout load - Sierra lists 56.5 grs Max, but Hornady lists 59.7 Max. I used a Redding bushing die w/ 0.002" neck tension. When the loads were fresh, I shot MOA groups at 200 yards, with no worrisome pressure signs. The rifle is a Ruger M77 "round top" (1970s vintage), the slickest action I've ever felt, and there was a very slight resistance to opening the bolt.
Some 20 years later, I dug out those remaining loads and attempted to check zero of the rifle/scope. Wham! Kicked like a mule, and I could barely open the bolt. I shot a second round (brave soul!) and same result.
Figuring I possibly had a "weld" condition (I had used a brass brush inside the necks before loading in those days), I witness-marked the bullets with a Sharpie, and used an inertial bullet puller to visibly dislodge the bullets, then re-seated them to the original length to ogive. After that, they settled back down to their original behavior.
Neither proves nor disproves anything, but there it is.
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I loaded some 270 Win using Win brass and Nosler 140 BTs, zero bullet jump (just touching), WLR primer, 58.4 grs RL-22. That's a stout load - Sierra lists 56.5 grs Max, but Hornady lists 59.7 Max. I used a Redding bushing die w/ 0.002" neck tension. When the loads were fresh, I shot MOA groups at 200 yards, with no worrisome pressure signs. The rifle is a Ruger M77 "round top" (1970s vintage), the slickest action I've ever felt, and there was a very slight resistance to opening the bolt.
Some 20 years later, I dug out those remaining loads and attempted to check zero of the rifle/scope. Wham! Kicked like a mule, and I could barely open the bolt. I shot a second round (brave soul!) and same result.
Figuring I possibly had a "weld" condition (I had used a brass brush inside the necks before loading in those days), I witness-marked the bullets with a Sharpie, and used an inertial bullet puller to visibly dislodge the bullets, then re-seated them to the original length to ogive. After that, they settled back down to their original behavior.
Neither proves nor disproves anything, but there it is.
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New member, and i realize this thread is old. But just to add some data.
I have been reloading for 5 years. Texas Gulf Coast. If i read this thread 2 years ago, i would have been skeptical too. My reloads shot well out to 600 yards, and three shot groups at 100 were between 0.25” and 0.6”. SDs in the 9-15 fps range. Very happy with this.
Then one day wanted to load to a slight jam, so loaded 147 ELD-Ms in Hornady brass for my 6.5CM. Brass was cleaned in an ultrasonic cleaner, so zero carbon remaining in the necks. Later on had second thoughts (worried about how much to reduce the powder charge to avoid a pressure problem), so decided to reseat them for a 0.020” jump. Used a K&M arbor press with the force measurement tip. Seating force (in pounds) went from the 15-25 lbs range to 50-80 lbs, so way higher. Bullet would not move until a lot of force was applied, and then it would suddenly came loose and would reseat with a loud thunk. Some (maybe 20%) were as light as before, no change. So seating force range ended up much larger than before, by about a factor of 4-6. Clearly not good for consistency. Later on repeated the test with 140 Berger Hybrids loaded long in Lapua brass. Same results. Wrote down the seating force with a Sharpie pen on the case. Reseating took a lot more force after 3 weeks on the shelf.
I don’t know what metallurgical effects are at work here, but the effect is real. I now tumble instead of relying on the ultrasonic cleaner , and add a small amount of mineral spirits and a tiny amount of Nu-shine polymer car wax to the tumbling media. 5:1 ratio. Maybe one teaspoon of this mixture. Add a drier sheet to absorb the gunk that accumulates in your tumbler media. Dunk the bullets in mica powder before seating them. Not sure if that is really needed or not.
SD has come down to the 5-10 fps range for a box of ammo (30 to 50 loaded rounds). Vertical dispersion at 600 is perhaps 20-30% less, maybe, which helps me only a little bit, as bad wind calls determine my 600 yard group size. If i did not have a Lab Radar, i doubt i would even know that there was an improvement in SD. Will it matter at 1000 yards? I think yes.
I doubt people reloading in dry climates will see the same problem. And if you don’t have an instrumented arbor press, you likely will not be aware. Tonight as an experiment i reseated 30 rounds loaded very long, around 4 weeks ago, comparing seating force measurements with my notes. Seating force went up 30-50%. But only on about 70% of the loaded rounds, 30% were about the same seating force as before. So my new protocol did not make me immune to the problem, but it is greatly reduced. Storing ammo for long periods of time seems to make it a lot worse, at least for me.
So just load long and reseat the night before, and you will be fine. Hope this helps.
I have been reloading for 5 years. Texas Gulf Coast. If i read this thread 2 years ago, i would have been skeptical too. My reloads shot well out to 600 yards, and three shot groups at 100 were between 0.25” and 0.6”. SDs in the 9-15 fps range. Very happy with this.
Then one day wanted to load to a slight jam, so loaded 147 ELD-Ms in Hornady brass for my 6.5CM. Brass was cleaned in an ultrasonic cleaner, so zero carbon remaining in the necks. Later on had second thoughts (worried about how much to reduce the powder charge to avoid a pressure problem), so decided to reseat them for a 0.020” jump. Used a K&M arbor press with the force measurement tip. Seating force (in pounds) went from the 15-25 lbs range to 50-80 lbs, so way higher. Bullet would not move until a lot of force was applied, and then it would suddenly came loose and would reseat with a loud thunk. Some (maybe 20%) were as light as before, no change. So seating force range ended up much larger than before, by about a factor of 4-6. Clearly not good for consistency. Later on repeated the test with 140 Berger Hybrids loaded long in Lapua brass. Same results. Wrote down the seating force with a Sharpie pen on the case. Reseating took a lot more force after 3 weeks on the shelf.
I don’t know what metallurgical effects are at work here, but the effect is real. I now tumble instead of relying on the ultrasonic cleaner , and add a small amount of mineral spirits and a tiny amount of Nu-shine polymer car wax to the tumbling media. 5:1 ratio. Maybe one teaspoon of this mixture. Add a drier sheet to absorb the gunk that accumulates in your tumbler media. Dunk the bullets in mica powder before seating them. Not sure if that is really needed or not.
SD has come down to the 5-10 fps range for a box of ammo (30 to 50 loaded rounds). Vertical dispersion at 600 is perhaps 20-30% less, maybe, which helps me only a little bit, as bad wind calls determine my 600 yard group size. If i did not have a Lab Radar, i doubt i would even know that there was an improvement in SD. Will it matter at 1000 yards? I think yes.
I doubt people reloading in dry climates will see the same problem. And if you don’t have an instrumented arbor press, you likely will not be aware. Tonight as an experiment i reseated 30 rounds loaded very long, around 4 weeks ago, comparing seating force measurements with my notes. Seating force went up 30-50%. But only on about 70% of the loaded rounds, 30% were about the same seating force as before. So my new protocol did not make me immune to the problem, but it is greatly reduced. Storing ammo for long periods of time seems to make it a lot worse, at least for me.
So just load long and reseat the night before, and you will be fine. Hope this helps.
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Brians356
Gold $$ Contributor
See my post just before yours about 270 Win pressure spike. After re-seating to break the presumed "weld", pressures subsided. I live in dry Nevada, and don't use a swamp cooler or humidifier in my home.
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I have no doubt this exists. I have seen it with naked bullets. I run moly in most of my rifles and believe this may offer an advantage, at least as far as sticking bullets goes. Any thoughts?
Paul
Paul
I know the condition exist but not why. I had some .308 rounds stick that had set for over a year. I never use over .002" interference fit in the necks. I don't remember if these were new or fired cases. If they were fired, the only cleaning method was a tumbler with walnut media which doesn't clean the insides of the necks. Maybe 1/4 stuck hard but the others didn't to any great degree. It's possible that there was some dampness from perspiration from my fingers. The reloading room is never humid. A couple other things come to mind but didn't apply here. HBN (at least the type I experimented with) made the bullets extremely hard to pull back out. I used a 50 lb scale on the press handle and exceeded it's limits on a few. I also thought of using case lube in the necks. It seemed to work well but will it dry out or bake sitting in the chamber? I tried heating the neck with a torch, not nearly to annealing temperatures, and after 3-4 seconds and letting it cool, the bullet couldn't be pulled back out. At this point I just use Imperial dry lube in the necks and on the bullets and have not seen any problems. I have some loaded 2 years ago that I plan to partially pull and reseat to see if any tries to noticeably stick.
RetiredArmy
Gold $$ Contributor
Since starting this thread, I have been using Imperial dry lube. I stick the bullet in the media as opposed to the case neck as I find it less of a mess. I seat bullet .030 longer then my oal. The day before a range trip i seat to desired aol. I have felt and sometimes heard the snap of a "welded" bullet. It might all be in my head but it only takes a few min to reseat bullets but I sure do sleep better.
Thanks Bill
Thanks Bill
I just pulled 800-900 .223 bullets that were loaded around 1992.... I saw some so cold fused together the brass was stuck to the bullets after pulling them... These were not new cases when loaded because they were 1989-1992 headstamp Lake City and Winchester brass my father bought at a gun show and sat in his gun safe all these years till he passed away last year... Some were ok , some were way lose but some were frozen together that being most of them.... In my opinion bullet weld does happen , how long it takes for it to happen I don't know... But I can tell you they will at the 30 year mark because I saw it with my own eyes....
Brians356
Gold $$ Contributor
Were those all clean case necks when loaded? I believe the best protection against bullets sticking to necks is the natural residue present after firing a case, the stuff many now want to clean out. Today I clean the outside of the necks, but leave the soot inside (maybe a few turns of a nylon brush to smooth it out.) Of course, if you are loading new, unfired cases, or tumble every cycle, this option is off. But probably few here load brand new cases then let them sit for months or years, but tumbled loaded cases might well sit a long time.
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Of course I didn't not and my dad didn't load them , he bought them from some guy at a gun show around 1992 , I don't think he knew they were reloads or he wouldn't have got them.... They were all military crimp either Lake City or Winchester brass with the crimps removed , that's how I figured it out.... So I would say they had carbon in the necks when loaded and they looked like they had carbon when they were loaded... I don't think , not sure but I don't think wet tumbling was a big thing back then...
I do leave the carbon in my necks or use graphite neck lube on clean brass , I to think it would help prevent cold welding... Although I don't have any ammo stored that's that old.... All the powder which could have been BLC2 from the look and charges I weighed was still ok and found no clumping etc... I did fire about five and they all went off and we're loaded according to my crono speeds to 5.56 as labeled , the die used to load them was junk and scored all the necks up bad and would make the necks split on alot , that's why I pulled and saved only the bullets... All in all they would have worked in a SHTF situation even 30 years later , which is what he bought them for...
I have several hundred 8X56R that are Nazi headstamped 1938, Upon firing zero issues and zero evidence of any type of corrosion/welding inside the necks. All shoot flawlessly. Same thing for the couple thousand or so LC52 M2 Ball I have been shooting up over the past 10 yrs. Nothing of what you are describing. Maybe those with this welding issue are improperly storing them?
Brians356
Gold $$ Contributor
Can you give an example you have in mind of improper storage? For my part, handloads are stored in a cool, dry interior closet, always in MTM (or similar) plastic ammo boxes. I would describe that as ideal.
Re: your military ammo, what do we know about how the loads were assembled, or any bullet or primer sealants or which may have been employed? (Typically old military loads are sealed at both ends anticipating field conditions which may include total immersion.) Are the cases brass or steel? If brass, what alloy composition? What is the composition of the bullet jackets? How do the alloys employed compare to our modern case and jacket alloys?
Did you chronograph those military loads? If so, how did the velocities compare to manufacturer's original specs if available? When you say they shot "flawlessly" does that simply mean they ignited properly? (See my quote below.)
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If your asking me about how the ammo I pulled was stored , it was stored in my father's gun safe in a house that was about 72 degrees year round... He owned a machine shop in South Texas and sweated his entire life for money so his home was never hot nor humid to say the least... Shooting them I didn't notice anything other that they were hot and they were loaded hot but actually pulling them you could see it... Now not all were bad but some were , so I wouldn't say it was a constant... I pulled a factory lake city I had on my bench just to see and for most honestly there wasn't that much difference but the factory LC brass had that tar to sealant around the bullet... But as I said some were stuck were I had to put alot more into pushing the press handle up....
Just by the way I used one of the hornady bullet pullers I bought from pirate ammo and I really liked it... Made pulling 800-900 rifle rounds not that bad... The only ones it slipped on were the really stuck ones and a regrip did the job... Zero problems with the puller or collets and that's a pretty good test...
What was most shocking to me was these reloads were not sealed with tar or anything and everyone of them the powder poured out like water , no clumping etc... I did shoot a few over my crono and saw nothing out of the ordinary exept they were loaded to 5.56 specs and were hot.... To me it just wasn't worth the chance of something happening over it so I pulled them for the bullets for a rainy day...
Just by the way I used one of the hornady bullet pullers I bought from pirate ammo and I really liked it... Made pulling 800-900 rifle rounds not that bad... The only ones it slipped on were the really stuck ones and a regrip did the job... Zero problems with the puller or collets and that's a pretty good test...
What was most shocking to me was these reloads were not sealed with tar or anything and everyone of them the powder poured out like water , no clumping etc... I did shoot a few over my crono and saw nothing out of the ordinary exept they were loaded to 5.56 specs and were hot.... To me it just wasn't worth the chance of something happening over it so I pulled them for the bullets for a rainy day...
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What is the difference in a loaded round sitting on the shelf and the individual components sitting on a shelf?
I found the similar thing. Not all were stuck and these were only stored about a year in a dry, cool safe. I'm going to go through some of my ammo and spot check them. Pull the bullets up to see if they release normally and then reseat. I have used the Imperial dry lube for a couple years on everything except pistol ammo so I plan to pull some of those to see if I have any problems. I would hate to fire one that was loaded hot, which a lot of mine are, and have it welded in. My wife may have to paint my eyebrows back on. I have seen a few random loads that showed pressure signs when they were all loaded the same at the same time. Have you ever heard of factory ammo that was cold welded?
Put a magnet against a bullet or two. You may find that these 8X56R rounds use bullets with thinly copper plated mild steel jackets. Much European military ammunition of this era used steel components whenever possible, especially a few years later during WW2 when copper and zinc became scarce resources. If this applies, they would likely behave differently from modern match bullets and brass.
For all those bullet weld advocates I have the following questions:
1. How do manufacturer's assure that "bullet weld" does not destroy the accuracy of factory loads in which bullets are seated into new brass cases and allow to set on dealer's shelves for an indeterminate amount of time before being purchase and / or shot?
2. What is the time interval based on test data (i.e. how much time has to elapse from loading to shooting) before this condition produces performance changes?
3. As many have observed including myself, if you seat a bullet deeper on a reload that has been allowed to stand for several months there is a noticeable "click / resistance" to seating the bullet deeper. However does this condition produce POI and group changes?
4. Does the condition only affect POI or group changes beyond a certain shooting distance?
Just curious - not trying to start a pissing contest - I just haven't observed any affect of reloading months in advance of using the reloads but I don't shoot beyond 300 yards. And although I considered myself a precision shooter in that I'm a varmint / predator hunter, I'm not a competitive target shooter.
1. How do manufacturer's assure that "bullet weld" does not destroy the accuracy of factory loads in which bullets are seated into new brass cases and allow to set on dealer's shelves for an indeterminate amount of time before being purchase and / or shot?
2. What is the time interval based on test data (i.e. how much time has to elapse from loading to shooting) before this condition produces performance changes?
3. As many have observed including myself, if you seat a bullet deeper on a reload that has been allowed to stand for several months there is a noticeable "click / resistance" to seating the bullet deeper. However does this condition produce POI and group changes?
4. Does the condition only affect POI or group changes beyond a certain shooting distance?
Just curious - not trying to start a pissing contest - I just haven't observed any affect of reloading months in advance of using the reloads but I don't shoot beyond 300 yards. And although I considered myself a precision shooter in that I'm a varmint / predator hunter, I'm not a competitive target shooter.
shoot4fun
Gold $$ Contributor
until a couple months ago I was a non-believer. But I had some ammo loaded a couple weeks before a match that didn't get shot. I forgot about that ammo for 3 months or so. When I decided I needed to shoot it I had changed to a newer barrel and needed to set the bullets back a very slight amount to be good. Every single round gave me a pronounced pop when I broke the weld. I'm convinced!
PS I still ain't weighing primers tho!!!
PS I still ain't weighing primers tho!!!
In my opinion, even if the core is steel, if copper plated or copper jacketed, you still end up with only brass alloy and copper in contact with each other. The core material is irrelevant.
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