On any of them Varmints. MattHuh ?
Bullet weld
- Thread starter RetiredArmy
- Start date
BoydAllen,
I’ve always likened these sort of comments to running across a freeway in heavy traffic, surviving the crossing, and therefore declaring it to be safe. Some will heed the warnings (and documented histories), and others just have to pee on the electric fence for themselves.
Not my circus . . . not my monkeys.
I’ve always likened these sort of comments to running across a freeway in heavy traffic, surviving the crossing, and therefore declaring it to be safe. Some will heed the warnings (and documented histories), and others just have to pee on the electric fence for themselves.
Not my circus . . . not my monkeys.
If your talking about my post. How far were the groundhogs shot? How many shots per kill? How many were missed? I am talking 1000 yard BR with guns that do show the difference. Guns that shoot 10 shots in 3 inches and agg 5 inches. In a shoot where 1/4 inch matters and is the difference between winning and losing.
Does bullet weld matter at 1 to 300 yards? I doubt it shows much there. I can guarantee that if some are welded harder then others, it shows at 1000. Matt
Never shot anything at 1,000 yards - paper or game. Never shot competitive bench rest either - did shoot 3 position rifle and a lot competitive pistol (bulls eye).
I have about 80 to 85 % success rate on groundhogs - don't believe my success (or lack thereof) rate is due to my reloads or "bullet weld" since my ghog rifles are fairly consistent 1/2 to 5/8" moa rifles - my success rate (or lack thereof) is probably more due to the field shooting system I use, i.e shooting off a cross sticks and I'm over 70 years young - just don't have the skill I had years ago. Most of my shots are within 250 yards due to the places I hunt. I almost always let the ghogs under 100 yards crawl away. Still, these critters are small targets especially when partially concealed by hay - you don't always get the perfect profile shot or wind conditions so some level of precision shooting is necessary even at the modest distances I hunt. Bottom line - the most significant element is me, the shooter, not my bullet welded reloads.
I would still like to know what Remington, Federal, Winchester, and Hornady use to prevent "bullet weld" in their factory offerings. I talked my buddy in letting me put a few Winchester 150 grain 308's - couldn't detect any special coating. I spend a lot of time at the range and I see a lot of 1 moa and sub moa groups shot with factory ammo - see more that aren't too. Several of my fellow shooters who reload shoot some amazing groups off the bench. To a shooter they make no special provisions for "bullet weld" and never heard of it until I mentioned it. I'm just having trouble believing that this condition exists at least as a performance issue for the average precision shooter. What I'd like to see is some real statistically significant performance test data to substantiate it.
We spend much time fiddling with neck tension, and now I can see how, from reading the posts, that many feel it is an issue, I wish I had never heard of it, because now I have something in the back of my mind to think about. The informative post about the NM tin coated bullets make sense. I would be surprised to see much electrolytic action from such similar metals as copper and brass, not that it cant happen, I must not be a precise enough shooter with the off the shelf rifles I am using to notice it. Some claim they have measured noticeable pressure increases when pulling or reseating bullets suggesting its bullet weld, interesting, maybe so. Has anyone pulled or reseated bullets that had some form of non lubricating coating on them such as laquer? Would there be a difference in pressure? I guess the bottom line is if you are a believer fine, if not fine. For me its not an issue for reasons I have already stated.
Crevice Corrosion – which I believe is the term for the phenomenon being discussed, is a type of corrosion that differs from galvanic corrosion. Crevice corrosion can occur between two pieces of the same metal joined together – even stainless steel. In fact, one of the joined parts does not even need to be metallic and can be plastic or a painted surface joined to metal. Conditions that favor crevice corrosion are at least one unprotected metal surface joined tightly together with another surface to from a crevice, a confined space on one side and the other side open to the atmosphere. Seems like a rifle cartridge would meet those conditions nicely. Without posting up a lot of chemistry equations, essentially what happens with crevice corrosion is this: oxygen in the atmosphere and within the confined space reacts with the moisture at the inner and outer boundary of the crevice. This reaction continues until the oxygen in the confined space is depleted and then metal begins to be oxidized to balance the potential on the outside of the crevice. Since corrosion products are much more voluminous than the parent metal (particularly zinc oxide), the resulting corrosion product packs in between the bullet and the case neck causing increased force to be necessary to pull or remove the bullet. This has been happening to some degree since the invention of metallic rifle cartridges – it goes unnoticed in the vast majority of cases because the cartridges are seldom pulled apart but are fired and the resulting weirdness is blamed on everything and anything.
Several factors could contribute to the onset of crevice corrosion.
1. How full the case is with powder – filling the confined space up with powder would thus decrease the room for available oxygen.
2. The type of powder. Modern smokeless powders have an organic odor which means they are giving off vapors. Are these vapors corrosive if mixed with water vapor in a confined space? – or are some powders, due to their proprietary formulations, more corrosive than others? Not much information on this subject.
3. The moisture available on either side of the crevice.
4. Contamination on either the bullet or the case neck or both.
It seems that very clean case necks may be more vulnerable to crevice corrosion than case necks with some degree of carbon remaining from the previous firing. Also, various coatings on the case neck or bullet seem to decrease the susceptibility for crevice corrosion to initiate.
So if you load and store your ammunition in earth’s atmosphere, crevice corrosion attacking some of your loads is at least a possibility.
To those who say they have never experienced this phenomenon – I would offer this as food for thought. Ever loaded up rounds in the winter and had them shoot way hotter in the summer and blamed the increased pressure on temperature sensitivity of the powder? There is wide disagreement on the subject of which powders are temperature sensitive and which are not. Maybe the reason for the poor performance is the fact that the bullet requires hundreds of pounds more pressure to push it out of the case than originally required to seat it. Difficult to say - but seating the bullet just prior to shooting the round is cheap insurance.
My 2¢ worth.
Several factors could contribute to the onset of crevice corrosion.
1. How full the case is with powder – filling the confined space up with powder would thus decrease the room for available oxygen.
2. The type of powder. Modern smokeless powders have an organic odor which means they are giving off vapors. Are these vapors corrosive if mixed with water vapor in a confined space? – or are some powders, due to their proprietary formulations, more corrosive than others? Not much information on this subject.
3. The moisture available on either side of the crevice.
4. Contamination on either the bullet or the case neck or both.
It seems that very clean case necks may be more vulnerable to crevice corrosion than case necks with some degree of carbon remaining from the previous firing. Also, various coatings on the case neck or bullet seem to decrease the susceptibility for crevice corrosion to initiate.
So if you load and store your ammunition in earth’s atmosphere, crevice corrosion attacking some of your loads is at least a possibility.
To those who say they have never experienced this phenomenon – I would offer this as food for thought. Ever loaded up rounds in the winter and had them shoot way hotter in the summer and blamed the increased pressure on temperature sensitivity of the powder? There is wide disagreement on the subject of which powders are temperature sensitive and which are not. Maybe the reason for the poor performance is the fact that the bullet requires hundreds of pounds more pressure to push it out of the case than originally required to seat it. Difficult to say - but seating the bullet just prior to shooting the round is cheap insurance.
My 2¢ worth.
Perhaps why the folks back in the east, south, mid, states seem to think it's more of a problem. In southern Oregon, we rarely have humidity above 30% and single digits are common on hot and/or very cold days. Same in a lot of California. I have pulled some really old bullets and have never seen any indication of corrosion.
~Gary
Ccrider
Gold $$ Contributor
I don’t know that seeing corrosion after pulling bullets proves much. Before pulling old bullets, try to seat them a bit deeper. Is excessive seating pressure required? Does the bullet “snap lose” or does it seat in smoothly?
What I observed was that more force was required and the bullet broke or snapped lose. Don’t know if it happens all of the time or if it matter, but I do know that there was some type of “weld” that developed over a short period of time.
Dusty Stevens
Shiner
Exactly. Mine seated at 20-30psi initially and took well over 100 (guessing 200+) to seat them deeper after time. That just cant be a good thing. Visible corrosion on the bullet where it touched the neck.
Ned Ludd
Silver $$ Contributor
The "organic odor" in every powder I've ever used is diethylether. It is a neutral organic solvent and is not corrosive to metal. Neither is water for that matter, when you're talking about brass and copper during the time frame this process is known to occur. The phenomena described here as "welding" is based on a galvanic interaction between the neck wall and bullet bearing surfaces. IMO - the term "corrosion" as it has been used in other posts above is misleading and inaccurate.
How much "neck tension" are you running? Assuming my K&M arbor press is correct, it takes about 95psi to seat Berger 105 hybrids in annealed lapua brass with .0025 calculated tension. (In a Dasher)
~Gary
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Thats really high. I wonder if they are annealed enough. Do you clean to bare neck? Matt
Dusty Stevens
Shiner
Anywhere from 15 to 40 most of the time.
I clean to pretty bare necks and then lube with graphite when using the expander. It seems to leave a thin coating of graphite in the neck. They usually show about 65psi until the last .020, or so. Just thinking (dangerous) I'm running around 35 grains of RL16 and even though I use a drop tube, I wonder if there is some powder compression going on.
~Gary
That's pretty light.
Yeah, compressed loads will throw any targeted seating pressure right out the window.
But there's nothing wrong with a safe compressed load.
Dusty Stevens
Shiner
Either that or the pressure ring going thru a donut
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