My new 22BR!

[Evan]

Conditions were a bit odd today: Cool and heavily overcast with gusting, blustery winds. I felt like I was doing a good job, but the winds weren't going to let me get another dot. Here's what I got at 150:

All rounds were 31.3gns IMR4350 with 88 ELDs. Bottom right, cycling clockwise: Seat .065", 0.055", 0.050", 0.045", 0.040", and 0.035" from the lands. Looks inconclusive to me; I don't think they are particularly sensitive to depth but I'll need much calmer conditions to know.

After shooting these groups, the clouds burned away and the sun came out. I had my RPR with me and pulled it out:

If you look close you'll see a white rock, 6MOA right and ~4MOA low in the scope view. I don't know the range, but it took 58MOA and a flight time around 3 seconds (147ELD at 2750fps) to get there. Hornady's 4DOF suggests this may be just beyond 1500 yards and right on the edge of supersonic! I needed 3 rounds to walk onto it (nice splash signature today made it easier than usual), then managed 7 hits in a row. I was really kinda miffed that I had shot up all the 22BR earlier in the bad conditions cause things were clearly very calm and steady! This is the furthest distance I've made hits at.

 

[Evan]

Updated chart:


I went out and ran a quick pressure ladder of Varget and IMR4320 today. They seem to be shooting better than the IMR4350 or RL17 at >3000fps. Have to do some careful loads with them now that I know where they top out at. Top loads all show the start of very faint ejector smears and some folks would probably forge ahead, but I like my loads on the more moderate side.

 

[Evan]

I got up at 3:45am and went shooting before work today and got some great results at 350 yards:

Bear with me now, I know that is a mess. Instead of trying to mark it all up or explain from my notes, I'll summarize the outcome. Really there are only 2 take aways.

1. The tiny group in top center (0.5", 3 shots) was 28.2gns Varget. The tiny perfectly vertical group to the right of it (0.4", 3 shots) was 28.4gns of Varget. It looks like Varget REALLY shoots. These groups had a 3 shot IMR4350 and 3 shot RL17 groups between them, so across a period of time and shots, Varget still performed well.
   
2. 2 bullets did not make it to the target today . Gun went bang, but no holes appeared in the paper. You'll see a 2 hole group just right of top center that was 3 shots fired, and a "5 shot" group below my 0.4" vertical group on the right that was 6 shots (2-3 shot groups) fired. This is the first time I've ever had bullets not make it to the target. I will continue to shoot the 88s and see what happens, but I'm not sure I'll buy more after the ~500 I have are gone. For record if this problem grows from here, this barrel has ~130rnds on it.

I'm very pleased with the way Varget shot today. I'm going to load more up from 28.1 up to 28.5 and see if I can locate a node. This should be somewhere 2950-3000fps.

Also want to link this question in:

http://forum.accurateshooter.com/threads/neck-clearance-question.3983503/

I've had mysterious neck dimensions that make me suspect my chamber is not a 253 neck but instead a 250 or 251 chamber, and perhaps I have been unintentionally running close to a "fitted neck". Maybe bullet blowups will stop when I get all the brass turned to 248 loaded OD.

 

[Ned Ludd]

Evan - I've lost jackets with both Berger's 90 VLD and the Hornady 88 ELDM pushing them at ~2825 to 2850 fps through a .223 Rem with a 6.8-twist 30" barrel. The calculated RPMs under conditions where the jackets failed were from ~ 295K to 305K RPM. I'd imagine you're spinning them at a rate close to, if not more, than that given the higher velocity and your 7-twist barrel. Unfortunately, jacket failure with some heavy .224" bullets simply seems to be the nature of the jackets and the RPMs to which they are pushed. You might try the Sierra's 90 SMKs as an alternative. I am currently testing some in the rifle that has had issues with the other two bullets and have not had any failures as yet. It seems like the 90 SMK jacket is pretty tough.

 

[Evan]

Evan - I've lost jackets with both Berger's 90 VLD and the Hornady 88 ELDM pushing them at ~2825 to 2850 fps through a .223 Rem with a 6.8-twist 30" barrel. The calculated RPMs under conditions where the jackets failed were from ~ 295K to 305K RPM. I'd imagine you're spinning them at a rate close to, if not more, than that given the higher velocity and your 7-twist barrel. Unfortunately, jacket failure with some heavy .224" bullets simply seems to be the nature of the jackets and the RPMs to which they are pushed. You might try the Sierra's 90 SMKs as an alternative. I am currently testing some in the rifle that has had issues with the other two bullets and have not had any failures as yet. It seems like the 90 SMK jacket is pretty tough.

I'm watching for the 95 SMK to come back in stock, or the 90 VLD to go on sale. I should have jumped on the 90 VLD when grafs was selling them at $36/100 a ways back. I'll see if this problem continues to grow, if it does, I'll get some 90 SMK. I just wish the BC was a bit higher, but bullet has to make it to the target for that to matter. It appears other folks are having the same experience as you with them being tougher.

 

[Evan]

So 28.2gns of Varget delivered the mail again yesterday:

This is probably around 2975fps or so. 28.3gns and 28.4gns also produced some tight groups in the sub 0.75" category at 350 yards and 28.5gns started opening up and extruding primers badly so that's a no go.

Like last time, there's a lot going on with this target and I'm not going to explain it all. The Varget load of 28.2 is definitely the sweet spot and interestingly IMR4350 at 30.4gns shot quite well too but kept flinging one out (was it me/wind, or unturned necks, or the load?). I find it quite the funny little coincidence that 30.4gns of IMR4350 is probably right around 2975fps too. This load slammed 2 right on top of each other and threw the third shot out about an inch 3 out of 3 times (0.010" out, 0.015" out, and 0.020" out) during this session. Do I smell a sweet spot for the 88 ELD at ~2975fps?

I'd also like to report that the ELDs do not care about jump, as best I can tell, they're pretty happy between 0.010" out and 0.020" out, with them maybe favoring 0.020" a bit more.

I'm headed to a casual 1000yd match at the Colorado Rifle Club this Sunday and I think I will take 28.2gns of varget loaded 0.020" out with me. I may also bring some 30.4gns of IMR4350 and 30gns of RL17 to shoot during the unlimited sighters period to see if 2975fps is indeed a magic number, regardless of which powder gets them there.

 

[xswanted]

So 28.2gns of Varget delivered the mail again yesterday:
View attachment 1116986 View attachment 1116987
This is probably around 2975fps or so. 28.3gns and 28.4gns also produced some tight groups in the sub 0.75" category at 350 yards and 28.5gns started opening up and extruding primers badly so that's a no go.
View attachment 1116988
Like last time, there's a lot going on with this target and I'm not going to explain it all. The Varget load of 28.2 is definitely the sweet spot and interestingly IMR4350 at 30.4gns shot quite well too but kept flinging one out (was it me/wind, or unturned necks, or the load?). I find it quite the funny little coincidence that 30.4gns of IMR4350 is probably right around 2975fps too. This load slammed 2 right on top of each other and threw the third shot out about an inch 3 out of 3 times (0.010" out, 0.015" out, and 0.020" out) during this session. Do I smell a sweet spot for the 88 ELD at ~2975fps?

I'd also like to report that the ELDs do not care about jump, as best I can tell, they're pretty happy between 0.010" out and 0.020" out, with them maybe favoring 0.020" a bit more.

I'm headed to a casual 1000yd match at the Colorado Rifle Club this Sunday and I think I will take 28.2gns of varget loaded 0.020" out with me. I may also bring some 30.4gns of IMR4350 and 30gns of RL17 to shoot during the unlimited sighters period to see if 2975fps is indeed a magic number, regardless of which powder gets them there.

No bullet issues today?

 

[Evan]

No bullet issues today?

I thought so, but I walked to the target and saw two holes right on top of each other every time. No bullets lost! Maybe it was a fluke last time. I'm crossing my fingers, but not holding my breath.

 

[Evan]

So I figured I was kinda short-changing you guys by not taking careful pictures and showing what the IMR4350 is capable of:

At 350yards, that second shot all nice and tucked in there can't be seen distinctly in the scope and my first presumption is now that the bullet did not make it. These groups make me think that 4350 has potential though so I'm going to keep playing with it as a backup to my Varget load.

 

[xswanted]

I thought so, but I walked to the target and saw two holes right on top of each other every time. No bullets lost! Maybe it was a fluke last time. I'm crossing my fingers, but not holding my breath.

I’m interested to see how this progresses for you and hoping you do some more experimenting with the 88s and hopefully the 95s up over 3000fps with the 7 twist barrel.

I’d like to know from a first hand account how the bullets react as the barrel gets more and more rounds down the tube to see if in fact they will run right around the 3k mark without any issues.

My 22BR is most likely my next rifle that will need a barrel and I’m trying to decide what to go with. I have a reamer setup for 80 grain bullets and that combo works great right now, however I’d be curious to move to a new reamer for the 95s or 88s If they hold together as the barrel life increases.

 

[linebaugh]

I’m interested to see how this progresses for you and hoping you do some more experimenting with the 88s and hopefully the 95s up over 3000fps with the 7 twist barrel.

I’d like to know from a first hand account how the bullets react as the barrel gets more and more rounds down the tube to see if in fact they will run right around the 3k mark without any issues.




I'm pushing the 95's at 3000 +/- depending on the temps outside and no issues. I think I am at about 800 rounds down the pipe but I quite keeping track so it could be a bit more. Bartlein 30" 7 twist. BC holds true as advertised in my set up out to around 1700 fps and 900 yards where I had to drop it. I actually added a third drop at 1400 fps and 1200 yards.

I did not do the paperwork on this so my numbers may not be perfect but they are close enough for impacts on steel. I think I shot out to 1300 at the last shoot but targets are pretty big out that far so I would say some more truing would not hurt.

No blow ups with the SMK's. I clean my gun every 100 rounds and bore paste my throat with every cleaning since about 400 rounds.

As Ned Ludd has pointed out:
90 Bergers = weakest
88 ELD = middle of the road
90+95 SMK = toughest

So if you are popping the 88s you are going to have problems with the 90 vlds

 

[Evan]

I use a bronze brush at the end of every range session with boretech c4 to remove carbon. a nylon brush and cu2+ takes care of copper. I'm pretty comfortable that my system is removing the build up. I also wet and dry patch as I shoot, ever 20rnds or so while cooling down the barrel. Overall, fouling has not been substantial, and the barrel cleans up quickly and easily.

I also don't trim my cases short. 0.005" under max which I believe helps too.

 

[Evan]

Went to the local 1000 yard BR match in Byers at the Colorado Rifle Club today. Out of 100 rounds, less than 50 made it to the target. 95 SMKs showed up in stock yesterday and I ordered some, along with a box of Berger 90VLD, and we'll see how those do.

88ELD at 2970fps were somewhat working at a slow shooting pace with frequent cleaning during load development. In a match setting with time limits and a faster rate of fire, they vaporized more than half of the time on the way to the target.

EDIT: Round count on barrel is ~250rnds now

 

[steve123]

Even at 2814 fps and 50 rounds without cleaning I'll get an 88 freak out once in a while, not hitting anywhere close to where I'm aiming.

But I cleaned my 7 twist, 6 groove, real well with JB and for 30 rounds had no problems last time out ??!!

I might have to go to the 80's, darnit!

Have you tried the 90 SMK?

I've grown very tired of the longer bullets not working, this makes 3 times now I've had problems in 3 different calibers!

 

[Evan]

Even at 2814 fps and 50 rounds without cleaning I'll get an 88 freak out once in a while, not hitting anywhere close to where I'm aiming.

But I cleaned my 7 twist, 6 groove, real well with JB and for 30 rounds had no problems last time out ??!!

I might have to go to the 80's, darnit!

Have you tried the 90 SMK?

I've grown very tired of the longer bullets not working, this makes 3 times now I've had problems in 3 different calibers!

I haven't yet. They'll be next on the list if the slippery 90 VLD and 95 SMK don't pan out. I didn't have any issues with the 147 ELDM in my 6.5 creedmoor, but that is a 7.7 twist going a very pedestrian 2750fps for 257k rpm. The 88s at 2970 in a 7 twist are spinning 305k. That's a big difference and I'm feeling a bit like I may just have the rule going forward that 8 twist is my minimum. If it doesn't stabilize in an 8, then it's too long and heavy for the caliber and not worth the risk.

 

[xswanted]

Went to the local 1000 yard BR match in Byers at the Colorado Rifle Club today. Out of 100 rounds, less than 50 made it to the target. 95 SMKs showed up in stock yesterday and I ordered some, along with a box of Berger 90VLD, and we'll see how those do.

88ELD at 2970fps were somewhat working at a slow shooting pace with frequent cleaning during load development. In a match setting with time limits and a faster rate of fire, they vaporized more than half of the time on the way to the target.

EDIT: Round count on barrel is ~250rnds now

This has been a concern of mine.

My thoughts after you started this thread was the heavies would be nearly ideal in a 22 BR running around 3000fps.

However it seems with the Hornadys anyway that won’t work very well.

I’ve been looking at ballistics for 80 Berger’s compared to the 95 SMK based on speeds I know I can get with the 80 and speeds I would believe to be achievable with the 95 (2900) and wind drift is about 1.3 MOA better at 1000 yards for the 95.

So where is that is fairly significant, for my particular application I’m looking at this build for (PRS or similar shooting) I don’t know if that’s enough to risk having bullet troubles with, in long shot strings.


Once again it’ll be interesting to see your results with the 95. It looks like those will be less finicky for spinning them too fast according to others.

Been a fun thread, thank you.

 

[Ned Ludd]

Quite a few F-TR shooters have had success running Berger 90 VLDs, Sierra 90 SMKs and the Hornady 88 ELDMs at velocities of up to 2850 fps using .223 Rem with 7-twist barrels. However, plenty of F-TR shooters have also had issues with jacket failures at those velocities with the same two bullets when using twist rates faster than 7.0. I had a pretty good idea what might happen with a 7.0-twist barrel when running these bullets at velocities approaching 3000 fps (or more). I suspect when using cartridges such as the 22 BR to push bullets like the 90 VLD or 88 ELDM at velocities in the ~3000 fps range, a 7.25-twist barrel would be more than sufficient to stabilize the bullets and would certainly lessen the chances for jacket failures. Unfortunately, that likely means a custom order direct from the barrel manufacturer as that twist rate may not be easy to find in stock at most barrel dealers. Another option might be to stick with the 7.0-twist, but use a 0.219" bore instead of 0.218", which might engrave the jacket slightly less deeply and help to prevent jacket failure. I know some folks that are currently trying this approach out, but I don't as yet know how successful it has been.

You may find that the 95 SMKs don't present as much of a problem as you're not going to be able to drive the heavier bullets quite as fast. In my hands, the 95s tuned in at ~2750 fps, or about 100 fps slower than the 90 VLDs or 88 ELDMs, in the same 30" 6.8-twist barreled rifle that has blown up both 90s and 88s running at ~2825 to 2850 fps. I have not experienced any issues with the 95s to this point. I have also recently been trying out some of the 90 SMKs in the same rifle at ~2850 fps and have not experienced any jacket failures as yet. The BC of the 90 SMK is a tad lower than the 90 VLDs or 88 ELDMs, but I have come to appreciate that the BC value means very little if the bullet doesn't make it all the way to the target . I'd suggest trying both the 90 and 95 SMKs and see how they work out for you. It appears as though Sierra's jackets are tougher than the others.

 

[Evan]

Quite a few F-TR shooters have had success running Berger 90 VLDs, Sierra 90 SMKs and the Hornady 88 ELDMs at velocities of up to 2850 fps using .223 Rem with 7-twist barrels.

For the rest of the 88s, I'm going to back down to the low node that shot the dot,or maybe even slower. It'll make no real difference to me when shooting at my normal ~300yards. I'll work up the 95 SMK for 600 and 1000yard matches, and I'll play with the Bergers to see what they'll do and decide if they are worth it. Plenty of options left to try with this barrel!

 

[Lefty Trigger]

I'm so jealous of your shooting location and the bed of your "mobile reloading station" Awesome setup!!

 

[linebaugh]

For the rest of the 88s, I'm going to back down to the low node that shot the dot,or maybe even slower. It'll make no real difference to me when shooting at my normal ~300yards. I'll work up the 95 SMK for 600 and 1000yard matches, and I'll play with the Bergers to see what they'll do and decide if they are worth it. Plenty of options left to try with this barrel!

Try those 85gr RDF and see if they hold up. Velocity may overcome BC out to about 500. The real reason I want you to try them is so I can glean information from you.
I would presume 95s in a 22BR with a 30" tube you will end up at 2900ish. I do think they will stabilize there but you may need to modify your 1000 yard BC down as I don't think you will get the full value out that far.