Are Remington 700 Barrels Button or Hammer Forged

[piute]

Quest for knowledge. Is it true that the stainless barrels on Rem 700's from the early 1960's were made by Hart or was it just BS? I know they sure shoot good!

 

[rebel]

Who gives a damn if the thing shoots....

 

[alintx]

Piute,pretty common qestion. They had an inspector that used a hart shaped stamp on barrels he inspected is what was told by an old timer that knew and shot with mike walker. That being said, some of the old 40x barrels shot way better than a hammer forged factory barrel should! I have a 40x 6x47 rem barrel that shoots tiny groups, and yes, it has a hart stamp on it!

 

[Tommie]

A bizillion years ago I read that 40X barrels were button rifled while the 700 barrels got hammer forged barrels. And if I recall correctly the 788 barrels were also button rifled (if that gives you any clue as to how old that information is).

 

[Intheshop]

Trying not to step on any forum rules,toes. I was looking for the history behind Remington's bowling pin finish.... which technically isn't an epoxy. In that research I came upon discussion of their custom shop. Located over Mr. Smiley's left shoulder is a Walker Turner drillpress...... got a minty version of this in our machine shop. Which is partly the reason I saved the pic. The text discusses drilling and rifling the barrels in their custom shop..... early 1960's.

 

[Intheshop]

 

[FrankG]

Wish more of the old guys where around to talk too regardless of how the barrels where made.

Cool Pic! Thanks for sharing!

 

[B23]

Wish more of the old guys where around to talk too regardless of how the barrels where made.

Just think Frank, fifty plus years from now and they could be saying that about some of the current barrel makers like yourself.

 

[1lnbrdg]

I had a .308 chambered barrel I hammer forged 1 time

 

[FrankG]

Just think Frank, fifty plus years from now and they could be saying that about some of the current barrel makers like yourself.

Only just recently I’ve started to think about that. What I will say to that though is now a days vs. days past the ability to keep records and pass along what we’ve learned is better than in the past.

Wish I could talk to guys that worked at Springfield Armory prior to WW2. Or barrel makers like Pope, Schalk and Zischang etc....Probably misspelled some of those.

What some guys have learned has to an extent at times been lost. That’s the bummer part but also what makes all of this fascinating as well.

 

[B23]

Only just recently I’ve started to think about that. What I will say to that though is now a days vs. days past the ability to keep records and pass along what we’ve learned is better than in the past.

Wish I could talk to guys that worked at Springfield Armory prior to WW2. Or barrel makers like Pope, Schalk and Zischang etc....Probably misspelled some of those.

What some guys have learned has to an extent at times been lost. That’s the bummer part but also what makes all of this fascinating as well.

And on the flip side of that conversation, I'd imagine some of those same guys would enjoy talking to you new guys about things as well.

 

[cjames]

I have been on the Anti-Remington bandwagon for awhile. But I broke down and bought a 5R MilSpec .223. My very first group was 1/2" 3 shot. Figured if the first 3 shot sucked why have 2 wasted bullets left to shoot for a 5 shot group. Anyway, did a somewhat barrel break in. 3 shots then cleaned. This rifle has really exceeded my expectations so far. I'll get to the 5 shots next trip to the range. I borescoped the barrel and chamber and it actully looks really good. Unlike my .308 MilSpec that I commited about at the begining of this thread. That being said, I am shooting 69 gr SMK's and 24.5 grs of H4895 pierced a primer. I didnt think that would be that hot of a load.

Change of subject, and not to hijack the thread, but does anyone know how Remington chambers the barrels? I hear and been told about 700's with crocked chambers. Now, I wouldn't make a hair on a gunsmith's ass, but if the barrel is turning in a lathe and the reamer is not how could that cut crooked? I can see if the barrel is not turning and the reamer is how that could cut crooked. Just curious.

 

[snert]

Early button rifling, with carbide buttons, was researched and developed in Dryden NY by Ross Sherman. He was mentor to Ed Shilen, and Ross worked in collaboration with Walker and Harts. Some of the early stainless remington barrels were Hart, but realize that Remington was developing commercial button rifling as Harts and others were doing the same. the heart on the rem barrels does not mean HART.

 

[Hydenseek]

I thought Remingtons were cast

 

[JimT]

I thought Remingtons were cast

I could be wrong, but I think Salvadge has the patent on that.

 

[mauser284]

I had a 5R Mil Spec 308 that looked like it was made with a hammer drill. It had chunks of rifling missing from the lands and had porosity all the through out the barrel. Best was 3 shot not 5 shot was about 1.5 MOA. Sent it back to Remington. They sent it back and said "it was in spec". I called Remington to talk about it. They told me if I wanted better than that, I need to get a smith to build a rifle. Sold it and never looked back.

Like any process the people in charge of the process have a bigger impact than the process itself. CHF barrels can be fantastic or junk. Button riffled barrels can be fantastic or junk.

People can make Remington Rifles Shoot by re-machining and re-barreling them but had Remington chosen to they could have made a far better product than they chose to make. The accuracy issues of most factory rifles do not start with the barrel!

 

[mauser284]

I thought Remingtons were cast

They where cast steel long ago! You should try opening a book some time it will do wonders for your. Remington's first real game changer for themselves are other gunsmiths where their cast steel barrels! Unless you work in a museum though you have likely not seen one in real life, handled one or fired one.

Long before Remington purchased a CHF machine they used what would be considered by todays standards some very impure steels for barrel steel. People joking called these modern rifle barrels cast because of the history of Remington long long ago using cast steel barrels. If you tried to use harsh cleaners like strong ammonia from Hatcher's Notebook it would attack the barrel steel and eat pits into it. A high quality very uniform 4140 or better will not be easily attacked by exposure to strong ammonia unless it is left in a really really long time. Even Sweet's which does not contain strong concentration but rather weak concentrations of ammonia was often enough to attack the steel.

Science, Math, History can go a long way in preventing one from looking foolish on a topic that has been very well documented.

Funny that there is not a single military purpose built sniper weapon made with button rifled barrel or cut rifled barrel today. The Army's latest sniper rifles have to have a minimum 20,000 round barrel life with specified accuracy. The only way to do that is with CHF barrel no cut rifled or button rifled barrel can do that. Likewise no serious BR shoter in America would ever use anything but button rifled and baring the 30BR most never see a 1000 rounds before they are replaced. Hart makes some fantastic barrels but they also in my experience shoot out faster.

CHF=mass produced OEM barrel I doubt they are checking the mandrel that closely before making the next barrel. I doubt they are maintaining the mandrel to ideal specifications before sending it back to tooling to be refinished.

I worked for General Motors for 7 years in manufacturing. They figured they could stamp 3X-4X the number of pick up truck box panels before repairing the dies if they just shot some orange peel in the paining to hide the uneven stretching as the dies wore out. They figured out that if they filled the rear axles of light duty pickup trucks with synthetic gear lube they could call it lubed for life lowering initial cost of ownership for fleet sales and save $0.03 per rear axle by not machining and threading a bolt hole. They ran the water based tool coolant at one plant at something insane like 40X higher concentration than manufacture recommended to reduce tooling cost. That created 2 problems first workers where exposed to to neurotoxins from that high concentration of coolant for decades and it encouraged black mold to grow under all the of the line. My point is that large corporations consistently do things not in the best interest of their workers or their customers. You can not compare something manufactured under those conditions to something made with an eye to detail and quality specifically for those that want the best accuracy bar none!

It is not the process or the machinery sometime often it is the men and women running the machine and the direction the boss above them gives them. Modern manufacturing tries to build in fantastic levels of precision compared to 20 years ago with the design of the tooling and assembly line layout so that mostly unskilled labor can turn out a quality product that is far more accurate than most products in the past with less time, re-work and skilled trades needed. Consistency over skilled work.

Today you can make 5X the number of rifles made in a given amount of time with almost no need to re-work a single rifle. You can get 85% of those rifles to shoot MOA or better. That was unheard of 10 years ago and even more so 20 years ago. In the past with an army of gunsmiths and skilled machinist and old equipment you had a bell shaped curve with sub MOA factory rifles making up the tiny front of the bell most rifles in the largest part of the bell curve in the 1.75-2.5MOA area and the back of the bell curve being 4MOA or worse. You probably had 20% rework required and who knows how much factory warranty work because the rifle was not right when it left. The numbers I put up are not real numbers I made those up just to illustrate a point. Sure the rifles looked better finish wise and were often much slicker but the man hours needed to do that was insanely high compared to today. The skill required was also much higher.

We just do not have enough skilled trades and gunsmiths today willing to work for the wage needed to be competitive. People with those skills can go some place else and either make a lot more or make the same in a far more comfortable setting.

Look at the improvements Ruger has made to Marlin lever guns. The quality, fit and finish and consistency is fantastic by design! There is a great video explaining how they have managed to do that with a small line, small number of unskilled workers, modern machines. If you find the video I think it is 20 minutes long tops and it is a very good video.

People who make cut rifled or button rifled barrels have a bias towards what pays the bills! Nothing wrong with that. I think it is dishonest though to put the blame on the method when in reality the comparison is not apples to apples. It would be like comparing a fwd n/a 4cyl Toyota Camry to a rwd Ford Mustang with a turbo charged 4cyl. Sure they both cars with 4cylinder engines but that is about all they have in common. Comparing a 1/2 gasoline truck to a 1 ton diesel. A hand forged hi end kitchen knife to a Walmart of Dollar Store kitchen knife!

I respect Franks knowledge a lot until he starts talking about CHF barrels that he does not make. We have no idea just what can be done since factories do not share their research with us on what they could make if they decided too. Some companies pre-profile the barrel blanks before hammer forging some do not. Some normalize the steel twice most only once. Almost all OEM's hide behind "that's proprietary".

I am still waiting to see all these barrel makers finance engineering research and publish the results! I do not see them giving away anything like an instruction manual or competitive analysis or their trade secrets! They will not even put the name of a well known OEM barrel normally when they put up a video or still images or any measurements! If your science and truth can not hold up in a court of law and your afraid to speak the truth for fear of a law suite you not really doing anyone any favors really.

In fact if scientist and medical professional where not likewise such cowards the world might not be in the situation it is currently in with SARS-CoV-2, Vaccine Injury's, Lack of Efficacy, Mounting Supply Chain Crisis, Inflation, Huge Spike in All Cause Mortality, all down to fear! Cant speak the truth out of fear! I might be wrong from time to time and I often have to apologize for being blunt but I always tell the truth unless my wife is asking me if a dress, skirt or pair of jeans makes her butt look fat!

Anyone that has looked down the sewer pipe that Savage calls a button rifled barrel can see that the man and the tooling and attention to detail matters! HARTS button rifled barrels look nothing like a Savage! LOL

 

[Will Henry]

I'm not replying to anyone but will add my 2 cents.
Some of the very best barrels I have used have been hammer forged. I have contoured and re-contoured a bunch of hammer forged barrels and have found them to be quite inert at far as apparent stress is concerned. I have also seen some hammer forged barrels which were absolute crap but they still seemed relatively stress free.
The same applies to button rifled barrels and to cut rifled barrels. The most visibly perfect barrel (using straightness and uniform internal finish and dimension as the criteria) I ever had in my shop was cut rifled but I have had more buttoned barrels which appeared to be nearly perfect. Top quality hammered barrels are consistently excellent.
By the way, I was told by one gunmaker, who had worked in a hammer forging facility, that "cold forging " is just a figure of speech and those barrels come out of there damn hot! Which stand to reason, if you think about it.
The very worst barrels I saw, with regards to stress, were cut rifled barrels which had been made with steel which was not stress relieved. They were impossible to contour without treatment. WH

 

[davidjoe]

I have contoured and re-contoured a bunch of hammer forged barrels and have found them to be quite inert at far as apparent stress is concerned. I have also seen some hammer forged barrels which were absolute crap but they still seemed relatively stress free.
The same applies to button rifled barrels and to cut rifled barrels. The most visibly perfect barrel (using straightness and uniform internal finish and dimension as the criteria) I ever had in my shop was cut rifled but I have had more buttoned barrels which appeared to be nearly perfect. Top quality hammered barrels are consistently excellent.

But, there is a limit on wall thickness that keeps hammer forging from working on very heavy profile barrels, right? Profiles that we would consider appropriate for string fire target shooting I believe would require too thick a blank to work with. The HF blank already has to start out shorter and thicker than the finished barrel, by a considerable amount. I would surmise that the metal has to move so much on hammer forging, without inducing cracking, that the steel choices are narrower, require more malleability in the “recipe”, and rely on work hardening to offset that.

Button rifling works on heavy profiles, but sure can put unattractive waves on thinner sporter barrels. It’s a shame when a beautifully blued high grade hunting rifle can’t be held up to the light because looking down the barrel is so distracting. I don’t fully grasp how lubed buttons can chatter so badly resulting in a washboard down in the grooves, while the lands stay smooth, but I see that in pics as well. Perhaps there is a clean up step that doesn’t affect the grooves equally.

Cut rifling works on every wall thickness, doesn’t impart any stress and is the only method that can alter the twist rate within a barrel. (Pulled buttons conceivably could). The interior surface isn’t work hardened. In theory, I think this method would permit the widest choice of steel hardness to be used of the three, as the cut depth per pass can be continuously reduced, down to the limits of machine time and tool wear one is willing to devote. But the other two methods are against a wall when it comes to very hard steel selections.

 

[Will Henry]

Barrels are buttoned in straight blank form then contoured. Mike Walker recounted how he had tried buttoning a tapered barrel and ended up with a barrel which was larger at the muzzle.
I once had a hammer forged blank from Winchester which was 1 and 3/16" in diameter. Others, from Swiss Arms were 1.2" so they were semi-heavy.
The wavy outer surface is not an artifact from the rifling procedure but is evidence of poor polishing procedures by that particular maker. WH