Wilson seater bullet seating method

[JFASH]

I'm having a problem trying to get concentric rounds with my seater. Sometimes i'm getting .001 runout, then the next round could be out as much as .006... very frustrating. My question is how are you guys feeding the bullet into the case mouth? Light pressure or more of a firm push before you pull the handle and seat. Here is my method using lapua brass, 6.5 creedmoor (I don't turn the necks).
1. Clean brass with s/s media.
2. Anneal with amp.
3. Size with a l.e. Wilson full size bushing die.
4. lightly chamfer necks
5. Prime then seat the bullets ( i'm not using anything in the necks)

I seat the bullets with a KM arbor press with the force pack and the seating force is very consistent, I just can't seem to get consistent bullet runout. When I size the cases, the case runout is .0005. Any help would be appreciated.
Thanks
Joe

 

[BoydAllen]

How and where are your sized case runout measurements done? If you have a fresh trim, and even chamfer you should simply set the bullet on the case mouth and hold it there between the thumb and index finger at the top of the neck, lower the die over the bullet and case and then seat the bullet with your arbor press. If you want to guild the lily a bit you can spin the seater stem as it sits on the unseated bullet, after you have the die all the way down onto the case. How much neck tension are you using, and is there any chance that you are annealing your necks too soft so that the seating force causes the problem you are having?

 

[JFASH]

How and where are your sized case runout measurements done? If you have a fresh trim, and even chamfer you should simply set the bullet on the case mouth and hold it there between the thumb and index finger at the top of the neck, lower the die over the bullet and case and then seat the bullet with your arbor press. If you want to guild the lily a bit you can spin the seater stem as it sits on the unseated bullet, after you have the die all the way down onto the case. How much neck tension are you using, and is there any chance that you are annealing your necks too soft so that the seating force causes the problem you are having?

I measure the runout about an 1/8" of an inch from the case mouth with a Sinclair concentricity gauge. I'm going to try to spin the seater stem as you suggested, then seat the bullet. I always thought that the runout problem was caused by the set screw pressing against the stem to tightly ( I loosened it slightly, but it still caused runout). I'm running light neck tension (.001). I used the Aztec mode on my annealer and i'm getting very good seating force using this setting. How consistant is your runout Boyd?
Thanks
Joe

 

[Dusty Stevens]

Id be willing to bet your runout has nothing to do with seating- its done in the process before that. Check some cases all thru the process to see where its getting introduced

 

[JFASH]

Id be willing to bet your runout has nothing to do with seating- its done in the process before that. Check some cases all thru the process to see where its getting introduced

I don't know, just sized (40) cases and the ones that I checked (didn't check them all) measure .0005 to .001 of runout before seating. I'm only bumping the shoulders .001 of an inch. Next time I'll measure each one. Thanks
Joe

 

[AlNyhus]

Check the seater to determine what diameter the neck portion is. -Al

 

[JFASH]

Check the seater to determine what diameter the neck portion is. -Al

I'm using a vld seating stem. The stem seems to fit well, there is a tiny bit of wiggle room though.

 

[JFASH]

What i think im going to do is pull all the bullets then restart my process again only this time, I'll measure each case for runout. I appreciate the help.

 

[BoydAllen]

I measure the runout about an 1/8" of an inch from the case mouth with a Sinclair concentricity gauge. I'm going to try to spin the seater stem as you suggested, then seat the bullet. I always thought that the runout problem was caused by the set screw pressing against the stem to tightly ( I loosened it slightly, but it still caused runout). I'm running light neck tension (.001). I used the Aztec mode on my annealer and i'm getting very good seating force using this setting. How consistant is your runout Boyd?
Thanks
Joe

For my best rifle and equipment, I get .0015 or less about .150 in front of the end of the neck. (on the bullet) tight neck chamber, turned necks, close fit.

 

[JFASH]

If i still run into this problem, i may consider neck turning.

 

[Dusty Stevens]

If you find that its being caused by the seating die you may need to get a wilson blank and have it reamed by your gunsmith to more closely fit your chamber. You didnt catch the part about measuring the neck inside the seater die- if you turn your necks it may get even worse if that fit is sloppy. They make those seaters to fit every case which means big. I didnt catch if youre using a fl bushing die with no expander- youre probably getting runout from your sizing die. You can send some fired unsized cases to whidden and get a custom fl bushing die made, remove the expander, and use their matched micrometer seater die in your regular press and i think youll find no more issues if you skim turn your necks to just clean them up. Keep us posted on your progress- we’ll get you straight (literally)

 

[Richard Coody]

Since you are using a sizing bushing does your.concentricity gauge have the ability to check concentricity on the inside of your neck. With a bushing all the imperfections are pushed to the inside of.tbe neck.

One thing that.could be enlightening would be using an expander to push everything to the outside and checking.concentricity at several points along the neck.

Is there a.donut?

 

[tmwinds]

I'm not the worlds greatest shot but I've never been able to see on the target any difference between .000-.002 and .003-.004 runout.

 

[AlNyhus]

I'm using a vld seating stem. The stem seems to fit well, there is a tiny bit of wiggle room though.

I'm referring to the neck diameter inside the die. Wilson's are great dies but the neck diameter is often excessively large, allowing the necks to be relatively unsupported when the bullet is seated.

Pin gauges work nicely to check this.

Hope this helps. -Al

 

[JFrank]

I have the same dis and seater
I occasionally check my F/L to ensure the bushing is not overly tight.
I do not anneal nor feel the need to do so.
I will index the seater very close to my CBTO measurement to ensure the seater doesn’t bottom out.
I have not experienced the run out you’ve described using Wilson Dies however if I had I certainly would re trace my steps setting up.

I have used other Dies that have produced run out to .005 with no effect on accuracy.
J

 

[JFASH]

If you find that its being caused by the seating die you may need to get a wilson blank and have it reamed by your gunsmith to more closely fit your chamber. You didnt catch the part about measuring the neck inside the seater die- if you turn your necks it may get even worse if that fit is sloppy. They make those seaters to fit every case which means big. I didnt catch if youre using a fl bushing die with no expander- youre probably getting runout from your sizing die. You can send some fired unsized cases to whidden and get a custom fl bushing die made, remove the expander, and use their matched micrometer seater die in your regular press and i think youll find no more issues if you skim turn your necks to just clean them up. Keep us posted on your progress- we’ll get you straight (literally)

I removed the expander before i resized the cases. I also tried a redding f/s sizing die, just to get a comparison. Seems to be just a tad more consistant, but still experience runout on some cases. Thanks

 

[JFASH]

Since you are using a sizing bushing does your.concentricity gauge have the ability to check concentricity on the inside of your neck. With a bushing all the imperfections are pushed to the inside of.tbe neck.

One thing that.could be enlightening would be using an expander to push everything to the outside and checking.concentricity at several points along the neck.

Is there a.donut?

I use a bushing that is a little smaller then the bullet diameter, then i expand the neck with a sinclair expander. I thought about using an even smaller bushing in my die, then expand but i worry that the expander would create scratches on the inside of the case mouth. I know i can use graphite to help but i would like to keep the necks clean.

 

[JFASH]

I'm referring to the neck diameter inside the die. Wilson's are great dies but the neck diameter is often excessively large, allowing the necks to be relatively unsupported when the bullet is seated.

Pin gauges work nicely to check this.

Hope this helps. -Al

I'll try the pin gauges.

 

[BoydAllen]

Are you checking runout after expanding?

 

[JFASH]

I'm not the worlds greatest shot but I've never been able to see on the target any difference between .000-.002 and .003-.004 runout.

I have the same dis and seater
I occasionally check my F/L to ensure the bushing is not overly tight.
I do not anneal nor feel the need to do so.
I will index the seater very close to my CBTO measurement to ensure the seater doesn’t bottom out.
I have not experienced the run out you’ve described using Wilson Dies however if I had I certainly would re trace my steps setting up.

I have used other Dies that have produced run out to .005 with no effect on accuracy.

You're correct, but i just like to keep everything in check and consistant.