Are the 90s worth it in a 22BR?

[Evan]

Hi all,
I've pretty much decided to rebarrel my burned out 22-250 to a 22br. I'd like to go with heavy bullets and a long barrel; probably 30 inches. This gun will handle 300-1000 yards, where my 20 vartarg drops off. 1000 isn't something I commonly shoot, but 600 is.

Is a 1:7 twist to shoot the 90s worth it? Or should I stick with 1:8 twist and stop at the 80s? Oh, another factor: I shoot at 5000+ ft of elevation in weather from single digits up to 80 or so degrees, so things that don't work for most folks at sea level work fine here. 1:8 might shoot more tolerant 90s.

Thoughts? Opinions?

 

[Ned Ludd]

It's not uncommon to hear of jacket failure with a .223 Rem and 90 VLDs running at 2800+ fps in faster-than-7-twist barrels. For obvious reasons, the benefits of a larger cartridge with more boiler room are totally lost if the bullets go "puff" 50 yds downrange. In past searches, I have dug up info online where people claimed to be using twist rates as slow as 7.2-twist with 90 VLDs and larger cartridges such as the 22BR and 22-250, presumably at elevations far less than 5000 ft.

Running the numbers with your elevation at Berger's Twist Rate calculator (5000 ft, 70 degrees, 3000 fps) suggests you could get away with a 7.5-twist rate and still maintain an Sg of 1.5. If you were willing to give up a little of the intrinsic BC, a 7.7-twist barrel would still give an Sg of 1.42. With a .223 Rem and a 7-twist barrel at 1000 ft elevation, 70 degrees, the calculator indicates the BC is compromised by ~1% (Sg = 1.46). I have never had any issues whatsoever running the 90s in such a setup at ~2850 fps. I'm sure you can play with the numbers a little more and come up with a good estimate of the minimum twist rate required to stabilize the 90s at the velocities you are likely to push them, and thereby minimize the chances of jacket failure.

Assuming you can achieve this goal with a little foresight and planning, then yes, it would probably be worth it to run the 90s. The performance is simply too good to miss. Further, if you have the chamber cut with a reamer that gives the equivalent of 0.169" freebore in the .223 Rem, you should still retain the ability to load most of the ~80 gr bullet offerings available as well.

 

[Evan]

It's not uncommon to hear of jacket failure with a .223 Rem and 90 VLDs running at 2800+ fps in faster-than-7-twist barrels. For obvious reasons, the benefits of a larger cartridge with more boiler room are totally lost if the bullets go "puff" 50 yds downrange. In past searches, I have dug up info online where people claimed to be using twist rates as slow as 7.2-twist with 90 VLDs and larger cartridges such as the 22BR and 22-250, presumably at elevations far less than 5000 ft.

Running the numbers with your elevation at Berger's Twist Rate calculator (5000 ft, 70 degrees, 3000 fps) suggests you could get away with a 7.5-twist rate and still maintain an Sg of 1.5. If you were willing to give up a little of the intrinsic BC, a 7.7-twist barrel would still give an Sg of 1.42. With a .223 Rem and a 7-twist barrel at 1000 ft elevation, 70 degrees, the calculator indicates the BC is compromised by ~1% (Sg = 1.46). I have never had any issues whatsoever running the 90s in such a setup at ~2850 fps. I'm sure you can play with the numbers a little more and come up with a good estimate of the minimum twist rate required to stabilize the 90s at the velocities you are likely to push them, and thereby minimize the chances of jacket failure.

Assuming you can achieve this goal with a little foresight and planning, then yes, it would probably be worth it to run the 90s. The performance is simply too good to miss. Further, if you have the chamber cut with a reamer that gives the equivalent of 0.169" freebore in the .223 Rem, you should still retain the ability to load most of the ~80 gr bullet offerings available as well.

Thanks, Ned! Yes, there is certainly going to be some research on how to spec my reamer. I think the long 22BR neck will be a real asset to get 75, 80, and 90s all to touch the lands and have room to chase the lands.

I'm not super greedy on speed (I don't think!). I'd like to hit 3000fps with 90s, which I'm lead to believe will be a comfortably achievable target without running high pressure loads, particularly with a big long 30 inch barrel.

It sounds like you really like the 90s and feel they give some real benefit compared to the 80s. This whole thread was spawned off my concern over jacket failures. It seems like if it happens with 223, then it would be much more likely in a 22BR, but I can also run a slower twist as you mentioned and I don't want to run nuclear loads. I can do more research, but do some of the 90s do better with slower twists?

I would probably be well served with a Kreiger or Bartlein 5R 1:7.7 twist barrel

 

[Ned Ludd]

I looked into the idea of a 22BR for pushing the 90s a while back. My recollection is I thought I could get somewhere in the 3000-3100 fps range from a 30" barrel. There is one report from a while back of someone running them over 3200 fps, but as you noted, I wasn't that interested in sheer velocity. I think the 22BR platform pushing 90s would be sickeningly accurate with great performance without having to push it excessively.

Unless you plan on coming down from Olympus and shooting this rifle occasionally with the rest of us mortals at 1500 ft (or less) elevation, a 7.7-twist would probably work. Not sure how easy a 7.7-twist 31" .224 blank would be to find. If you end up having to custom order a barrel, I'd go with a 7.5-twist just to be sure. Best of luck with it!

 

[Geno C]

I put together a 22-250ai for my youngest. It has a 21” 7.7 Krieger 4 groove. I built it to shoot the 80vlds but I have some 90s I’ll test to see if they’ll work also. 3100fps should be too hard.

 

[Evan]

I looked into the idea of a 22BR for pushing the 90s a while back. My recollection is I thought I could get somewhere in the 3000-3100 fps range from a 30" barrel. There is one report from a while back of someone running them over 3200 fps, but as you noted, I wasn't that interested in sheer velocity. I think the 22BR platform pushing 90s would be sickeningly accurate with great performance without having to push it excessively.

Unless you plan on coming down from Olympus and shooting this rifle occasionally with the rest of us mortals at 1500 ft (or less) elevation, a 7.7-twist would probably work. Not sure how easy a 7.7-twist 31" .224 blank would be to find. If you end up having to custom order a barrel, I'd go with a 7.5-twist just to be sure. Best of luck with it!

I'm hoping it would show the tremendous accuracy they are known for, and while I think a 22 PPC is a bit closer to ideal powder capacity, the 22-250 is the rifle that needs a barrel and the 22br is looking like the best replacement.

Air is thin up here in the Rockies, lol. I don't want to build something that only works up here. I may move in the not too distant future and would hate to have bullets that no longer work.

 

[Cuando]

My .22br pushes 88's @ 2,940 with a 21" bbl and duplicates my 22" 6 Dasher dope with 108 ELD's.

 

[Evan]

My .22br pushes 88's @ 2,940 with a 21" bbl and duplicates my 22" 6 Dasher dope with 108 ELD's.

What freebore did your reamer have, if you recall?

 

[xswanted]

I have a 22BR 8 twist.

I can run 75s in it over 3200 and 80s easily chug along in the 3125 range.

These two loads will get you way out there. I don’t know if the heavier bullets are worth it, but it might be fun to shoot the 90s or 95s even from a 22 br and see what you get.

 

[Rtheurer]

Thanks, Ned!

I'm not super greedy on speed (I don't think!). I'd like to hit 3000fps with 90s, which I'm lead to believe will be a comfortably achievable target without running high pressure loads, particularly with a big long 30 inch barrel.

It sounds like you really like the 90s and feel they give some real benefit compared to the 80s. This whole thread was spawned off my concern over jacket failures. It seems like if it happens with 223, then it would be much more likely in a 22BR, but I can also run a slower twist as you mentioned and I don't want to run nuclear loads. I can do more research, but do some of the 90s do better with slower twists?

I would probably be well served with a Kreiger or Bartlein 5R 1:7.7 twist barrel

For your comparison. I have been running a 224 Grendel ( 22PPC Improved if you will) with a 24" barrel. I am getting 3030FPS from the super long 88Gr ELD bullet. 1:7 Twist. Just shot it in a 1000 yard match yesterday. I believe you will get 3000 pretty easy with the 30" tube and the 22PPC with less case capacity. Picture from left to right: 7.62X39, Norma 22PPC, 224 Grendel.

 

[Evan]

For your comparison. I have been running a 224 Grendel ( 22PPC Improved if you will) with a 24" barrel. I am getting 3030FPS from the super long 88Gr ELD bullet. 1:7 Twist. Just shot it in a 1000 yard match yesterday. I believe you will get 3000 pretty easy with the 30" tube and the 22PPC with less case capacity. Picture from left to right: 7.62X39, Norma 22PPC, 224 Grendel. View attachment 1103907

If I had a PPC boldface, I would go 224 grendel. That's a cartridge I'm super interested in.

 

[Ned Ludd]

For your comparison. I have been running a 224 Grendel ( 22PPC Improved if you will) with a 24" barrel. I am getting 3030FPS from the super long 88Gr ELD bullet. 1:7 Twist. Just shot it in a 1000 yard match yesterday. I believe you will get 3000 pretty easy with the 30" tube and the 22PPC with less case capacity. Picture from left to right: 7.62X39, Norma 22PPC, 224 Grendel.

Russell, what twist are you running to stabilize the 88s at those velocities? I have recently been using them in the .223 over Varget at ~2825-ish from a 30" 6.8-twist barrel. Precision was outstanding, but I've had several jacket failures and therefore decided not to use them at this point in F-TR matches. Presumably at 3000+ fps, you can get away with a slower twist rate?

 

[Rtheurer]

Russell, what twist are you running to stabilize the 88s at those velocities? I have recently been using them in the .223 over Varget at ~2825-ish from a 30" 6.8-twist barrel. Precision was outstanding, but I've had several jacket failures and therefore decided not to use them at this point in F-TR matches. Presumably at 3000+ fps, you can get away with a slower twist rate?

Its a Cheap 1:7 Twist X caliber barrel. We just got our 1:6.8 Twist barrels for a couple of XTC Space gun uppers.

 

[TGP]

Running 90's out a 7 twist at 3000-3100 and no bullet failures

 

[Ned Ludd]

Its a Cheap 1:7 Twist X caliber barrel. We just got our 1:6.8 Twist barrels for a couple of XTC Space gun uppers.

I've blown up a few of the 88 ELDMs (as well as 90 VLDs) in a .223 Rem F-TR rifle with a 30" 6.8-twist barrel, which I why I asked. FWIW - the 88s were loaded over Varget at ~2825 fps, the 90 VLDs at ~2860 fps over H4895. I've never lost a single 90 VLD out of many thousands fired through 7.0-twist barrels.

 

[Cuando]

What freebore did your reamer have, if you recall?

I wanna say it was .90 or so.

 

[Evan]

I wanna say it was .90 or so.

Do you mean 0.090? Nearly an inch would be tremendously long freebore!

EDIT: For those interested, here is an update on the rifle:
http://forum.accurateshooter.com/threads/my-new-22br.3981971/

 

[Cuando]

Maybe it was .009”