New 2019 NRA HP rules...

[rardoin]

At Bayou everything is set before the shoot begins. Each shooters information is input so when the match starts the shotmarker already knows what caliber and target is being used.

Of course I shoot a .35 Whelen Super Improved (case is camouflaged to look like a .223)

 

[Turbulent Turtle]

Of course I shoot a .35 Whelen Super Improved (case is camouflaged to look like a .223)

Good to know. I'll make sure you're listed with a .17 Remington.

 

[rardoin]

Good to know. I'll make sure you're listed with a .17 Remington.

I've got one of those Denys. Still have yet to find a barrel with enough twist for the 83gr pills.

 

[Turbulent Turtle]

I've got one of those Denys. Still have yet to find a barrel with enough twist for the 83gr pills.

According to my calculations you need a 1:0.7 twist. So it's not really a barrel so much as a tapped screw hole.

The only problem is that the bullets fly apart immediately upon leaving the barrel, probably due to the 2,100,000 RPM spin rate. On the bright side, you can shoot at the same target for a long time without having to change it.

 

[Turbulent Turtle]

What I’m seeing here with these NRA rules, is something that has become far too common in our society. The lobby groups tell the government what rules to come up with so as to make it difficult, if not impossible for other players who may come along later to get into the game, thus protecting the fiefdom of the lobby groups.

Up until about a couple years ago, electronic targets were prohibitively expensive and complex to set up and maintain. Then open mic targets appeared and when Adam MacDonald announced his Shot Marker system, things got interesting. In the computer industry (and many others besides,) where marketing lives by buzzwords, this is known as a paradigm shift. $800/target, and they can be networked to form an entire line? I can just feel the impact this has had on the existing vendors. Hence the scramble to get the NRA to issue “official rules and certification.”

The debate rages between the folks who rely on “good enough” and those of insist on perfection. I’ve long believed that “perfection” is the enemy of “good enough” and this episode simply reinforces that belief.

Those of you who think that paper targets with human-serviced scoring systems are the “gold standard of targets,” are living in a distant universe where all target pullers are the same and they are fast, accurate and never get tired.

If you want your electronic targets to mimic perfectly a human-serviced target, they are going to need a lot more work.


First of all the 7 second delay is bogus. I have pulled countless targets at 300 yards and I could service these little bad boys in a few seconds if the shooter was burning up the X-ring as happened so frequently with the good shooters, the ones who would be prone to setting records. Putting a 7 second delay in these conditions is actually slower than human-serviced targets. A pair of seasoned competitors will service an LR-1 target inside of 7 seconds, provided the shooter does his part and stays in the 10-X rings. I’m 6’4” and I don’t need the whole target to come down before I can cut and paste in the 10-X ring in Raton, for example.

Time for service increases when the bullet impact is not in the 10-X ring. At that point, some bullet hole hunting may be required and that will slow things down, especially if you need to move the scoring paddle to the 9, 8 or worse.

When that occurs, the national records are not in jeopardy. Perhaps we should create an algorithm where the delay is dependent on the score, especially if it’s different from the prior shot or two. Just like someone shooting 10-X-X-10-X-8 can expect some delay on the service for that last shot, probably due to the surprise and then the laughter that is sure to seize the target puller, someone shooting 7-7-7-8-7-X can also expect a delay on that last shot while the target puller is waiting to ascertain this was not a crossfire while trying to hide is amazement.


Then again, I have seen people take 20-30 or more seconds to service a target when the prior shot was an X and the current shot is also an X. There are a variety of reasons for this. If the target does not go down, someone has to get the attention of the range officer to ask for a mark on the target. That can get iffy at times if the RO is asleep, busy with some other occurrence on the line, chatting with his buddies, playing on his smartphone, not hearing the request for a mark and so on. Then there may be repeated calls for a mark that are ignored by the pit crew because they are busy talking, or sleeping, or have fallen off the bench, or are busy eating lunch, or drinking, or dealing with the inevitable aftermath of eating and drinking.

When the target does come down it may, fall off, or be subject to target repair because the shooter hit the spindle, or the hole can’t be found because it’s in a crease or hiding under the spotter or it’s too high to reach for the 5’5” target puller. And we have the judgement of the pit crew who decide whether to award the higher ring value to a shot that is near the line. I have seen people frequently award the higher value when the shot hole was visibly not touching the line uttering the words “let’s just give it to him or her.” I have seen others be much tougher on judging and not awarding the higher value even though the hole was touching the line. Overall, I would say that the scoring is more lenient than harsh in these cases.

When the target finally comes up, you have the scoring disk falling off, or the shot marker disk falling off, or my favorite the inverted shot marker so that you have black on black, or the scoring disk and the location do not match.

So we need to build in some random delay even for 10-X shots; anywhere from 3 seconds to 5 minutes. And you also need to throw in some incorrect values at various intervals, especially when the shot gets close to the line.


Now, that’s just for the time delay, we also have to deal with the target faces.

The first match of the day can have decent faces. As the day progresses, we need to introduce some variation, to stay with the human-serviced gold standard. To me, as soon as soon as you put in a repair center, that target is no longer “NRA Certified.” To mimic these uncertified targets, we need to program in repair centers that are glued upside down or at 90 degrees (or 270 depending on your POV.) Then we need these centers to not be quite in the center, the ring lines may be pretty good at the top, but just never at the bottom. We also have to shrink some of them because of crease during the gluing process or just the general state of the backing cardboard. Another reason to shrink them is because the curl up with there are several layers of repair centers underneath the last one or better still when you have to place cardboard under the exact middle because there is simply no more backing material. “NRA Certified, my donkey.”

That said, anyone who is shooting near the edges of a repair center is not threatening any national record.

And of course, we need to obliterate the lines of the X-ring and to some extent, the 10 ring, if we have a good shooter.


The overriding feature of the human-serviced “gold standard” target line is the total lack of consistency from target to target and relay to relay. Two competitors on adjacent lanes will most probably get different levels of pit service, but at least it’s paper targets, pulled by humans. With electronic targets, competitors in adjacent lanes or even distant lanes, will get the exact same service; the people worried about the last little bit on the line should remember that this “uncertainty” is the same for all the shots near the line and where one shot may be scored lower than it should have been because it actually was touching the higher value the next shot might be scored higher than it should have been because it actually was NOT touching the higher value. The uncertainty swings both ways and it’s administered by a machine that doesn’t give a crap about who you are and what you’re trying to achieve.


Now, I am happy to create some algorithms to calculate the delay time to more closely match the human-serviced “gold standard” of scoring. I have some random number generators for which the seed can be the blood type of the shooter, divided by the color of the non-dominant eye. I also have one for the positioning of the “repair center” that I’ve been dying to try. It uses the time of day, phase of the Moon and the age of the match director in a very complex calculation.

 

[lawman29]

Denys you need to add the one where just as you squeeze one off the puller thought he saw an impact and the target is headed down with your bullet enroute

 

[GSS]

What I’m seeing here with these NRA rules, is something that has become far too common in our society. The lobby groups tell the government what rules to come up with so as to make it difficult, if not impossible for other players who may come along later to get into the game, thus protecting the fiefdom of the lobby groups.

Up until about a couple years ago, electronic targets were prohibitively expensive and complex to set up and maintain. Then open mic targets appeared and when Adam MacDonald announced his Shot Marker system, things got interesting. In the computer industry (and many others besides,) where marketing lives by buzzwords, this is known as a paradigm shift. $800/target, and they can be networked to form an entire line? I can just feel the impact this has had on the existing vendors. Hence the scramble to get the NRA to issue “official rules and certification.”

The debate rages between the folks who rely on “good enough” and those of insist on perfection. I’ve long believed that “perfection” is the enemy of “good enough” and this episode simply reinforces that belief.

Those of you who think that paper targets with human-serviced scoring systems are the “gold standard of targets,” are living in a distant universe where all target pullers are the same and they are fast, accurate and never get tired.

If you want your electronic targets to mimic perfectly a human-serviced target, they are going to need a lot more work.


First of all the 7 second delay is bogus. I have pulled countless targets at 300 yards and I could service these little bad boys in a few seconds if the shooter was burning up the X-ring as happened so frequently with the good shooters, the ones who would be prone to setting records. Putting a 7 second delay in these conditions is actually slower than human-serviced targets. A pair of seasoned competitors will service an LR-1 target inside of 7 seconds, provided the shooter does his part and stays in the 10-X rings. I’m 6’4” and I don’t need the whole target to come down before I can cut and paste in the 10-X ring in Raton, for example.

Time for service increases when the bullet impact is not in the 10-X ring. At that point, some bullet hole hunting may be required and that will slow things down, especially if you need to move the scoring paddle to the 9, 8 or worse.

When that occurs, the national records are not in jeopardy. Perhaps we should create an algorithm where the delay is dependent on the score, especially if it’s different from the prior shot or two. Just like someone shooting 10-X-X-10-X-8 can expect some delay on the service for that last shot, probably due to the surprise and then the laughter that is sure to seize the target puller, someone shooting 7-7-7-8-7-X can also expect a delay on that last shot while the target puller is waiting to ascertain this was not a crossfire while trying to hide is amazement.


Then again, I have seen people take 20-30 or more seconds to service a target when the prior shot was an X and the current shot is also an X. There are a variety of reasons for this. If the target does not go down, someone has to get the attention of the range officer to ask for a mark on the target. That can get iffy at times if the RO is asleep, busy with some other occurrence on the line, chatting with his buddies, playing on his smartphone, not hearing the request for a mark and so on. Then there may be repeated calls for a mark that are ignored by the pit crew because they are busy talking, or sleeping, or have fallen off the bench, or are busy eating lunch, or drinking, or dealing with the inevitable aftermath of eating and drinking.

When the target does come down it may, fall off, or be subject to target repair because the shooter hit the spindle, or the hole can’t be found because it’s in a crease or hiding under the spotter or it’s too high to reach for the 5’5” target puller. And we have the judgement of the pit crew who decide whether to award the higher ring value to a shot that is near the line. I have seen people frequently award the higher value when the shot hole was visibly not touching the line uttering the words “let’s just give it to him or her.” I have seen others be much tougher on judging and not awarding the higher value even though the hole was touching the line. Overall, I would say that the scoring is more lenient than harsh in these cases.

When the target finally comes up, you have the scoring disk falling off, or the shot marker disk falling off, or my favorite the inverted shot marker so that you have black on black, or the scoring disk and the location do not match.

So we need to build in some random delay even for 10-X shots; anywhere from 3 seconds to 5 minutes. And you also need to throw in some incorrect values at various intervals, especially when the shot gets close to the line.


Now, that’s just for the time delay, we also have to deal with the target faces.

The first match of the day can have decent faces. As the day progresses, we need to introduce some variation, to stay with the human-serviced gold standard. To me, as soon as soon as you put in a repair center, that target is no longer “NRA Certified.” To mimic these uncertified targets, we need to program in repair centers that are glued upside down or at 90 degrees (or 270 depending on your POV.) Then we need these centers to not be quite in the center, the ring lines may be pretty good at the top, but just never at the bottom. We also have to shrink some of them because of crease during the gluing process or just the general state of the backing cardboard. Another reason to shrink them is because the curl up with there are several layers of repair centers underneath the last one or better still when you have to place cardboard under the exact middle because there is simply no more backing material. “NRA Certified, my donkey.”

That said, anyone who is shooting near the edges of a repair center is not threatening any national record.

And of course, we need to obliterate the lines of the X-ring and to some extent, the 10 ring, if we have a good shooter.


The overriding feature of the human-serviced “gold standard” target line is the total lack of consistency from target to target and relay to relay. Two competitors on adjacent lanes will most probably get different levels of pit service, but at least it’s paper targets, pulled by humans. With electronic targets, competitors in adjacent lanes or even distant lanes, will get the exact same service; the people worried about the last little bit on the line should remember that this “uncertainty” is the same for all the shots near the line and where one shot may be scored lower than it should have been because it actually was touching the higher value the next shot might be scored higher than it should have been because it actually was NOT touching the higher value. The uncertainty swings both ways and it’s administered by a machine that doesn’t give a crap about who you are and what you’re trying to achieve.


Now, I am happy to create some algorithms to calculate the delay time to more closely match the human-serviced “gold standard” of scoring. I have some random number generators for which the seed can be the blood type of the shooter, divided by the color of the non-dominant eye. I also have one for the positioning of the “repair center” that I’ve been dying to try. It uses the time of day, phase of the Moon and the age of the match director in a very complex calculation.

Denys, You make some great points in this post.

Some funny sh!t too....

Cheers,
G-

Not Associated with your post above at all but,
I can't wait for the Official NRA Rules Changes to be shared publicly so we have facts to debate regarding the next round of NRA rules changes.

 

[Turbulent Turtle]

Denys you need to add the one where just as you squeeze one off the puller thought he saw an impact and the target is headed down with your bullet enroute

Yes, that is a good one. The corollary is of course that the target stays down a LONG time in those cases, while the pit crew, certain they saw the bullet impact, are busy hunting for a non-existent bullet hole.

Another good one is the target not brought back up high enough, or the target moving because the pit crew is leaning on it while engaged in a discussion about the merits of 0bamacare on annealing a bullet. (Yes, a bullet.)

Then you have the inevitable target that goes back up without the scoring disk being moved to the proper location and it comes back down to fix after you have had the customary argument with the scorer for getting the proper value because you don't want to even think of calling for a mark since the RO is busy listening to smooth jazz in his Bluetooth headset and could not hear you anyway.

 

[Jennb]

Add this one! You are waiting out a bad condition and the target goes down because the pit person thought you were finished and the target is down a long time only to come back up with a clean face and no previous shot information. This actually happened.

 

[Turbulent Turtle]

Add this one! You are waiting out a bad condition and the target goes down because the pit person thought you were finished and the target is down a long time only to come back up with a clean face and no previous shot information. This actually happened.

There are a lot more target pulling follies that I have seen over the decades but did not list here. That is a good one, for sure. The other one that happened to me a few years back is when my target puller, a very new shooter (first time out?), did not understand the concept of rings and instead of giving me the higher value ring if my bullet touched the ring, (s)he gave me the lower value if my bullet touched the ring on the other side.

You can imagine my discomfiture.

 

[_Raining]

What I’m seeing here with these NRA rules, is something that has become far too common in our society. The lobby groups tell the government what rules to come up with so as to make it difficult, if not impossible for other players who may come along later to get into the game, thus protecting the fiefdom of the lobby groups.

Up until about a couple years ago, electronic targets were prohibitively expensive and complex to set up and maintain. Then open mic targets appeared and when Adam MacDonald announced his Shot Marker system, things got interesting. In the computer industry (and many others besides,) where marketing lives by buzzwords, this is known as a paradigm shift. $800/target, and they can be networked to form an entire line? I can just feel the impact this has had on the existing vendors. Hence the scramble to get the NRA to issue “official rules and certification.”

The debate rages between the folks who rely on “good enough” and those of insist on perfection. I’ve long believed that “perfection” is the enemy of “good enough” and this episode simply reinforces that belief.

Those of you who think that paper targets with human-serviced scoring systems are the “gold standard of targets,” are living in a distant universe where all target pullers are the same and they are fast, accurate and never get tired.

If you want your electronic targets to mimic perfectly a human-serviced target, they are going to need a lot more work.


First of all the 7 second delay is bogus. I have pulled countless targets at 300 yards and I could service these little bad boys in a few seconds if the shooter was burning up the X-ring as happened so frequently with the good shooters, the ones who would be prone to setting records. Putting a 7 second delay in these conditions is actually slower than human-serviced targets. A pair of seasoned competitors will service an LR-1 target inside of 7 seconds, provided the shooter does his part and stays in the 10-X rings. I’m 6’4” and I don’t need the whole target to come down before I can cut and paste in the 10-X ring in Raton, for example.

Time for service increases when the bullet impact is not in the 10-X ring. At that point, some bullet hole hunting may be required and that will slow things down, especially if you need to move the scoring paddle to the 9, 8 or worse.

When that occurs, the national records are not in jeopardy. Perhaps we should create an algorithm where the delay is dependent on the score, especially if it’s different from the prior shot or two. Just like someone shooting 10-X-X-10-X-8 can expect some delay on the service for that last shot, probably due to the surprise and then the laughter that is sure to seize the target puller, someone shooting 7-7-7-8-7-X can also expect a delay on that last shot while the target puller is waiting to ascertain this was not a crossfire while trying to hide is amazement.


Then again, I have seen people take 20-30 or more seconds to service a target when the prior shot was an X and the current shot is also an X. There are a variety of reasons for this. If the target does not go down, someone has to get the attention of the range officer to ask for a mark on the target. That can get iffy at times if the RO is asleep, busy with some other occurrence on the line, chatting with his buddies, playing on his smartphone, not hearing the request for a mark and so on. Then there may be repeated calls for a mark that are ignored by the pit crew because they are busy talking, or sleeping, or have fallen off the bench, or are busy eating lunch, or drinking, or dealing with the inevitable aftermath of eating and drinking.

When the target does come down it may, fall off, or be subject to target repair because the shooter hit the spindle, or the hole can’t be found because it’s in a crease or hiding under the spotter or it’s too high to reach for the 5’5” target puller. And we have the judgement of the pit crew who decide whether to award the higher ring value to a shot that is near the line. I have seen people frequently award the higher value when the shot hole was visibly not touching the line uttering the words “let’s just give it to him or her.” I have seen others be much tougher on judging and not awarding the higher value even though the hole was touching the line. Overall, I would say that the scoring is more lenient than harsh in these cases.

When the target finally comes up, you have the scoring disk falling off, or the shot marker disk falling off, or my favorite the inverted shot marker so that you have black on black, or the scoring disk and the location do not match.

So we need to build in some random delay even for 10-X shots; anywhere from 3 seconds to 5 minutes. And you also need to throw in some incorrect values at various intervals, especially when the shot gets close to the line.


Now, that’s just for the time delay, we also have to deal with the target faces.

The first match of the day can have decent faces. As the day progresses, we need to introduce some variation, to stay with the human-serviced gold standard. To me, as soon as soon as you put in a repair center, that target is no longer “NRA Certified.” To mimic these uncertified targets, we need to program in repair centers that are glued upside down or at 90 degrees (or 270 depending on your POV.) Then we need these centers to not be quite in the center, the ring lines may be pretty good at the top, but just never at the bottom. We also have to shrink some of them because of crease during the gluing process or just the general state of the backing cardboard. Another reason to shrink them is because the curl up with there are several layers of repair centers underneath the last one or better still when you have to place cardboard under the exact middle because there is simply no more backing material. “NRA Certified, my donkey.”

That said, anyone who is shooting near the edges of a repair center is not threatening any national record.

And of course, we need to obliterate the lines of the X-ring and to some extent, the 10 ring, if we have a good shooter.


The overriding feature of the human-serviced “gold standard” target line is the total lack of consistency from target to target and relay to relay. Two competitors on adjacent lanes will most probably get different levels of pit service, but at least it’s paper targets, pulled by humans. With electronic targets, competitors in adjacent lanes or even distant lanes, will get the exact same service; the people worried about the last little bit on the line should remember that this “uncertainty” is the same for all the shots near the line and where one shot may be scored lower than it should have been because it actually was touching the higher value the next shot might be scored higher than it should have been because it actually was NOT touching the higher value. The uncertainty swings both ways and it’s administered by a machine that doesn’t give a crap about who you are and what you’re trying to achieve.


Now, I am happy to create some algorithms to calculate the delay time to more closely match the human-serviced “gold standard” of scoring. I have some random number generators for which the seed can be the blood type of the shooter, divided by the color of the non-dominant eye. I also have one for the positioning of the “repair center” that I’ve been dying to try. It uses the time of day, phase of the Moon and the age of the match director in a very complex calculation.

I think the idea is to provide consistency to the shooters without changing the spirit of the competition.

The idea is to simulate a competent target puller for all competitors every time without causing a shift in the equipment of the competitors towards shooting as fast as possible. I assume you would not like it if the F-TR rules changed to have a limit of 16 lbs and reduced the bipod footprint to be 2 inches less. These situations are more dramatic in the sense that they would force most people to change their rifles but if the result in no delay causes 90% of people to change their rifles then chances are people will be upset. Now I can't say for sure if it will actually cause people to start modifying their rifles to allow them to shoot faster or if the people who do so will end up winning more often or if there will be a trend where it is obvious that records will be broken more easily on electronic targets vs standard ones.

What I can say that as a programmer, adding a 7 second delay in the display of the shot or only showing the last shot is trivial, non-disruptive and seems to be what the majority of people want so why not do it? It basically comes down to, one scenario will absolutely make things better for people while guaranteeing that the spirit of the competition does not change and the other scenario may have consequences that change things that the majority of the people who participate in it feel that change is for the worse.

Note that I do understand that you don't actually think those changes you mentioned should be programmed in but it seems you are poking fun at people who want the delay and I figured I would try to put it in a way that might make you understand where people are coming from.

 

[GeoffR]

Yes, adding a delay and showing the last shot only was a fairly trivial exercise. Randomising the delay also (it has to be simple as I've done it). But incorporating a randomisation seed on the criteria Turbulent Turtle describes might prove to be somewhat more challenging!

 

[lawman29]

Then the subtle one: the counter balance weight tooo finely tuned and that darn thing will just drop a couple inches if you don't keep pressure on the target bottom...that wasn't me... you got vertical in your load

 

[Ned Ludd]

Add this one! You are waiting out a bad condition and the target goes down because the pit person thought you were finished and the target is down a long time only to come back up with a clean face and no previous shot information. This actually happened.

I think when this happens it means you haven't dropped any points yet. But you'll need a few extra loaded rounds.

 

[Rope2horns]

Add this one! You are waiting out a bad condition and the target goes down because the pit person thought you were finished and the target is down a long time only to come back up with a clean face and no previous shot information. This actually happened.

Tracy Harrold and Richard McClain appreciate you not mentioning their names.

 

[Turbulent Turtle]

I think the idea is to provide consistency to the shooters without changing the spirit of the competition.

I’m going to use this post as my vehicle for a response to all this discussion as I think it properly captures the current thinking of many people, so please do not think I’m picking on you because I am, but by extension I am addressing everyone else.

Your initial belief is definitely what the delayers (that’s what I call them,) will stand behind. The words “consistency” and probably “spirit,” to which we will return shortly.

The idea is to simulate a competent target puller for all competitors every time without causing a shift in the equipment of the competitors towards shooting as fast as possible.

I’m not sure what you are trying to say here as the equipment rules for high power have been changing for a very long time, evolving with the times and the technology. The best example of that is the whole F-class thing that was added to High Power rules in 2007.

I assume you would not like it if the F-TR rules changed to have a limit of 16 lbs and reduced the bipod footprint to be 2 inches less.

These situations are more dramatic in the sense that they would force most people to change their rifles but if the result in no delay causes 90% of people to change their rifles then chances are people will be upset. Now I can't say for sure if it will actually cause people to start modifying their rifles to allow them to shoot faster or if the people who do so will end up winning more often or if there will be a trend where it is obvious that records will be broken more easily on electronic targets vs standard ones.

This is what we call a straw man argument. It has nothing to do with the discussion but the flawed analogy is used to stretch a point. I do not know if you have ever fired on an electronic target. Don’t feel bad, I wonder if most people who are expressing opinions on the subject have ever fired on an electronic target. I do know that several have so no need to get in a tizzy about that.

What I can say that as a programmer, adding a 7 second delay in the display of the shot or only showing the last shot is trivial, non-disruptive and seems to be what the majority of people want so why not do it? It basically comes down to, one scenario will absolutely make things better for people while guaranteeing that the spirit of the competition does not change and the other scenario may have consequences that change things that the majority of the people who participate in it feel that change is for the worse.

Note that I do understand that you don't actually think those changes you mentioned should be programmed in but it seems you are poking fun at people who want the delay and I figured I would try to put it in a way that might make you understand where people are coming from.

Now we get to the gist of the controversy and here is my position.

As I explained earlier, there is NO consistency in target pulling. There is NO “gold standard” in targets as soon as you hang the NRA certified target on anything other than a perfectly flat backer. Heck, I will even go further as to say there is no consistency in target lines or ranges.

At Bayou, we are at under 100ft ASL and the range is dead flat. At Raton, they are near 7000ft ASL and the target line is probably more than 100 feet higher than the firing line. At Lodi, they are at 1400ft ASL and the target line is below the firing line by probably over 100 feet. The range at Ben Avery is at 1500ft ASL, dead flat. Add in all the other ranges you can think of. None are the same.

On some ranges, the lanes are vastly different from others. (I’m looking at you Raton, THE NRA range.) The targets in the middle of the range are more favored than the ones on the far right (high numbers) and especially the ones on the far left (low numbers). This is actually unfair to the shooters at the same event. In Lodi, I remember that the target on the far left were in a swamp.

Trying to keep everything consistent between ranges, pullers and so is a pipe dream and anyone who uses that as a justification for anything is a fool. For me, the consistency is in how the match is conducted for all the people attending that event. A match is a discrete entity, it needs to be set up so that all participants in THAT match are on an equal footing. It is incumbent on the match director to make sure that a) the match is safe (safety first) b) fair to all participants c) enjoyable.

There are two aspects to a match: The range and the shooters. The range is set up to be similar from venue to venue by using similar distances, course of fire, target faces and so on. The shooters are set up in a same way with their equipment; rifles, calibers, rests, ammo, ancillary equipment and so on.

Having similar courses of fire, distances, target faces and so on means that people can go from one venue to another and they will be shooting the same way everywhere. This is good for safety, enjoyment and competing against one another on an equal footing. The NRA provides the rules for the shooters with respect to the equipment they can use and that’s why you don’t have somebody shooting in F-TR using a .338LM on a tripod. The F-class rules are still in flux as people bring in new equipment and toys.

By having these rules I can take my F-TR rifle that is legal at Bayou and go to Lodi, Raton and other places and it will be legal there also. Further, I will be competing against people who have rifles similar to mine, with the same limitations as to weight, caliber and so on. I do not have to worry about going to compete in Chicago against somebody who uses a .416 CheyTac in F-TR because it’s legal at the Chicago Range.

When I go to a match, they usually tech the guns and I know that everyone is legal. Of course, we have some ranges that only tech the guns of the winners, which means that I may be competing against someone who is not legal, but may best me in a single match and never have his or her gun teched. That’s unfair, but it happens. I happen to believe that ALL guns should be teched at a big match.

Now each range has their own unique way of conducting a match, as long as the target faces, distances and course of fire are respected. This is where you see wide variations in how people are squadded and how they get assigned to various targets, especially in venues where the target lanes are not all equal. These ranges make changes to fit their environment with an eye to Safety, Fairness and Enjoyment. A range does not want to get a reputation for being unsafe and they certainly do not want to be dinged for being systematically unfair or deemed to be favoring certain people. And ranges do not want to be known as a terrible place to go shoot. That’s where the NRA leaves a lot of discretion to the local match directors and that’s presented when matches are approved for the coming year.

So, if a club decides to install electronic targets that use the NRA target faces, course of fire, distances and enforces the equipment rules, while keeping the 3 goals in mind: safety, fairness and enjoyment, they have met all the requirements of a great venue.

If a club decides to use electronic targets instead of human-serviced targets, they are actually increasing the three main goals: safety, no one in the pits; fairness, all match competitors will get the exact same target service, for every shot, every relay, every match and every day; and enjoyment: pit duty is not one of my top ten favorite activities. Especially in summer, or during a rainstorm and as I get older. If it’s a big enjoyable part of a match for some people, I’m sure we can come up with a similar activity, just not in the pits and not impacting a shooter.

If a club decides to have zero delay, (actually for 1000 yards, you will have about 2 seconds of delay,) it will be the same for all the shooters at that event. It is far FAIRER than ANY match with human-serviced targets. Let’s talk about the one issue that everyone is so concerned about: national records.

On the line at Bayou, we have Target Rifles, Service Rifles, Scoped Rifles, Any/Any, Palma, F-Open and F-TR. If the objective is to prevent machine gunning the string down-range with a zero delay, the only ones that could conceivably do that are the F-Open folks. People keep thinking new records are being set right left and center all the time and that we have no history.

 

[Turbulent Turtle]

Not so, let’s have a look:

300 yards: 200-20X co-owned with D. Honeycutt and Bayou’s very own Johnny Ingram in 2016. There are several other categories and it’s nice to see Bayou is well represented in those.

500 Yards: 200-20X by Tod Hendricks. We don’t shoot 500 at Bayou, maybe we should start that.

600 Yards: 200-22X by S. Broussard of Iota, LA. Bayou has a few shooters in the sub categories back a few years, with one fairly recent (pre-Etargets).

1000 Yards: 200-17X by D. Gosnell (a Bayou alum, but I don’t know where he shot that one, dated 10/17/2015.

So, the national records are all at or near maximum already. Yes, I know about the X count thing. To set a national record now you have to be at the confluence of many things: You have to be a great shooter, with a great load, rifle, scope, equipment and superb conditions. I will also add that you need a great target puller. So a lot of things have to come together to set a national record and one of them is the target puller. I would be willing to bet that having a bad or inconsistent target puller has cost a national record to a great shooter.


At Bayou, we shoot with the 7 second delay and I can see where this is going to hurt scores unless people adjust to it properly. My big issue with the electronic targets is the fact I have to look at a device to see what my score is; it moves my attention from the target to that device. During that time, I am not looking at the conditions. The trade-off was that I would get my score quickly and then return my attention to the target and the conditions. By having that artificial 7 second delay, I am now forced to look away from the target and the conditions to look at a screen that will eventually show me my score. It’s stupid, utterly stupid and a takes away from the spirit of the game, but that’s what the NRA wants. Having the score right away meant that I could keep with my regular routine of trying to stay focused on the target and conditions and trying to adjust at starting at a blank wall. With the delay, things will change from even more from the human-serviced target by making you look at the screen for much longer.

To be honest, I would rather have a paper target services by a great puller than an e target with no delay and much more so than with an e target with an arbitrary artificial delay. That delay actually decreases the enjoyment of the match and does nothing to increase fairness. It’s actually the worse of both world, thanks NRA.

I always thought the biggest challenges for High Power competition was attracting and keeping new shooters. I was looking at Electronic Targets as a great way to attract new shooters. At Bayou, we hold a training session every few years to try to attract new shooters. It’s a one day seminar and the morning is spent on learning the duties of the shooter, the scorer and the target puller with live fire. We even put out a 50-page booklet that covers all that stuff and we provide it to the students. (It will be posted at our website very soon.) The afternoon is spent at the 1000 yard line with several pairs of coach/shooter discussing wind and shooting at the targets. The pit duties are a big turn off for a lot of people. I was thinking that at the next training day, we would be showing the benefits of the electronic targets to great effect. Of course, we will have to explain the decision by the NRA to have an arbitrary artificial delay for “fairness” and when that falls apart, we will explain that it’s better to inconvenience everyone to “protect” a national record. Because, let’s face it, that’s what the delay is all about; one national record.

My position is that the etargets should not have an arbitrary artificial delay built-in. It serves absolutely no purpose, it’s capricious and misguided. If someone wants to keep burning up his or her barrel to get to 200-20X at 1000 yards in F-Open class, have at it. There is no reason to inconvenience everyone else for that. The etargets make High Power competition more attractive to people and more enjoyable to shooters, and most important of all, they increase safety and make the entire match fair.

 

[Ned Ludd]

Not so, let’s have a look:

300 yards: 200-20X co-owned with D. Honeycutt and Bayou’s very own Johnny Ingram in 2016. There are several other categories and it’s nice to see Bayou is well represented in those.

500 Yards: 200-20X by Tod Hendricks. We don’t shoot 500 at Bayou, maybe we should start that.

600 Yards: 200-22X by S. Broussard of Iota, LA. Bayou has a few shooters in the sub categories back a few years, with one fairly recent (pre-Etargets).

1000 Yards: 200-17X by D. Gosnell (a Bayou alum, but I don’t know where he shot that one, dated 10/17/2015.

So, the national records are all at or near maximum already. Yes, I know about the X count thing. To set a national record now you have to be at the confluence of many things: You have to be a great shooter, with a great load, rifle, scope, equipment and superb conditions. I will also add that you need a great target puller. So a lot of things have to come together to set a national record and one of them is the target puller. I would be willing to bet that having a bad or inconsistent target puller has cost a national record to a great shooter.


At Bayou, we shoot with the 7 second delay and I can see where this is going to hurt scores unless people adjust to it properly. My big issue with the electronic targets is the fact I have to look at a device to see what my score is; it moves my attention from the target to that device. During that time, I am not looking at the conditions. The trade-off was that I would get my score quickly and then return my attention to the target and the conditions. By having that artificial 7 second delay, I am now forced to look away from the target and the conditions to look at a screen that will eventually show me my score. It’s stupid, utterly stupid and a takes away from the spirit of the game, but that’s what the NRA wants. Having the score right away meant that I could keep with my regular routine of trying to stay focused on the target and conditions and trying to adjust at starting at a blank wall. With the delay, things will change from even more from the human-serviced target by making you look at the screen for much longer.

To be honest, I would rather have a paper target services by a great puller than an e target with no delay and much more so than with an e target with an arbitrary artificial delay. That delay actually decreases the enjoyment of the match and does nothing to increase fairness. It’s actually the worse of both world, thanks NRA.

I always thought the biggest challenges for High Power competition was attracting and keeping new shooters. I was looking at Electronic Targets as a great way to attract new shooters. At Bayou, we hold a training session every few years to try to attract new shooters. It’s a one day seminar and the morning is spent on learning the duties of the shooter, the scorer and the target puller with live fire. We even put out a 50-page booklet that covers all that stuff and we provide it to the students. (It will be posted at our website very soon.) The afternoon is spent at the 1000 yard line with several pairs of coach/shooter discussing wind and shooting at the targets. The pit duties are a big turn off for a lot of people. I was thinking that at the next training day, we would be showing the benefits of the electronic targets to great effect. Of course, we will have to explain the decision by the NRA to have an arbitrary artificial delay for “fairness” and when that falls apart, we will explain that it’s better to inconvenience everyone to “protect” a national record. Because, let’s face it, that’s what the delay is all about; one national record.

My position is that the etargets should not have an arbitrary artificial delay built-in. It serves absolutely no purpose, it’s capricious and misguided. If someone wants to keep burning up his or her barrel to get to 200-20X at 1000 yards in F-Open class, have at it. There is no reason to inconvenience everyone else for that. The etargets make High Power competition more attractive to people and more enjoyable to shooters, and most important of all, they increase safety and make the entire match fair.

The last paragraph was all you really needed to provide your full opinion on the subject. Nonetheless, I congratulate you on your proselytizing, Denys. Even by your own longwinded standards, you've outdone yourself.

Unfortunately, you dead wrong. Having a preset delay is NOT capricious, nor is it misguided. Such a delay (which is actually in the Rules now, by the way) will make the use of E-targets more similar to the use of paper targets with human pullers than having no delay at all. You can whine and nitpick and quibble and type until your fingers fall off trying to justify having no delay, but it's all BS. A delay is the simplest and most expedient mechanism to prevent the kind of rapid shooting that turns F-Class into something very different than what it has ever been, while retaining the perceived benefits of E-targets. It's really that simple.

 

[Rope2horns]

I will also add that you need a great target puller. So a lot of things have to come together to set a national record and one of them is the target puller. I would be willing to bet that having a bad or inconsistent target puller has cost a national record to a great shooter.

[/QUOTE


Interesting, because when I set the pending record for 1k..I had to call for 3 marks...it was raining and everything was going in a shot out hole in the berm from previous relays..spotting impact was hard and it was to be expected...on shot 12 my target fell out of the frame. Doesn't get better than that.

This is real...it's human interaction...nobody is guaranteed anything when they bring equipment to the line...assuming a bad or inconsistent target puller keeps a great shooter from setting a record is nothing more than pure speculation.

The whole laundry list of reasons that have been stated for no delay are they exact reasons there needs to be a delay...the delay is as consistent and the same for everyone as not having one... it is the human element that is part of the sport and anything other than that changes it to something completely different.

And before anyone says, well it's because your a record holder you want the delay...You would be FOS and don't know me very well.. I hope someone breaks it..I'll be the first in line to shake that persons hand, slap them on the back and congratulate them...I also believe when good things happen in our sport it generates interest and that is always a great thing!!

 

[Highpower-FClass]

+ 1 for the delay camp.

We think there are some fast shooters in F-Class but even our fast shooters are slow compared to a bench rest shooter with a caddy and a drop-port. I'm not so worried about what we are currently considering ''F-class machine gunning'. I'm worried about when people will show up and shoot 20 shots in less than a 90 seconds, shoot cleans and others following suit to stay competitive. That kind of shooting is very different from what we do today.