20 seconds would be fun. We could always ask the NRA to update for 2020 a 7 sec. minimum delay. That way clubs could decide what delay they want to use, so long as it is 7 sec. minimum
E-Targets for F-Class
- Thread starter Down South
- Start date
That is kind of funny those powders you speak of are mainly developed and manufactured in Australia. Nearly all of Hogdons powders are just rebadged ADI powders want a list its on the ADI website. I believe most if not all the powder factories in the US have blown up not to be replaced.
Dont forget that f-class is an international sport. I know you dont have to play it by the international rules. Just like your scoring ring but when competing in an international event it is those rules that are used.
Australia has had this conversation for a while so far it has been ruled against but I think that may change for the same reasons being expressed here. But if a delay is wanted to stop a one minute 10 round range more than 7 seconds is going to be needed. It would be a expert target puller to be able to pull find hole mark and reset in 7 seconds and then be able to keep that up all day.
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If it’s such an issue to implement a delay on some brands of ET the most practical way to slow the course of fire would be to go 2 or 3 to a target ‘Bisley style’
Having shot Bisley on the weekend it is certainly a different game.
- Your lying in your position a lot longer, and you strengthen that position (or find out of your not so strong)
- you cannot wait out a condition (must release shot 60seconds after target presents)
- your barrel barely gets hot if conditions are hard
- a big wind cheating caliber is probably more desirable as every shot is a bit like a sighter. I shot my 300WSM and in that course of fire the big calibre makes a lot of sense.
Don’t get me wrong, it’s fun to lie down and blast a possible score fast on an ET, and has been mentioned earlier shooting fast is a skill in itself.
But I go F-class shooting as a release for my mind. It forces you to focus only on hitting your target and everything else in your world is forgotten during that time.
If my shot string is all over in only a minute I don’t feel satisfied, that mind release was short and it’s not such a sense of achievement (I would call a good score luck most of the time if it’s shot in under a minute) as most likely the shooter got his string away in the same condition. And yes I am guilty of getting 10shots away in a minute or less as well.
The sense of satisfaction when there is a 3moa change, you see it, dial it and hit centre is definitely greater than waiting that change out which is what you would do in string fire.
I don’t think pairs firing will get off the ground here in Australia unfortunately. I am sure there would be a lot of shooters here that would disagree with my view of it. Also for a lot of older shooters lying down for 25 or 30minutes at a time might be too much of a stretch.
So at the moment in Australia we are in the position where a lot of open shooters (me included) are running ammo caddies, ejectors, dual ports and light recoiling calibres in search of the fastest shooting combo as with no delay these elements of equipment certainly make a big difference.
Having shot Bisley on the weekend it is certainly a different game.
- Your lying in your position a lot longer, and you strengthen that position (or find out of your not so strong)
- you cannot wait out a condition (must release shot 60seconds after target presents)
- your barrel barely gets hot if conditions are hard
- a big wind cheating caliber is probably more desirable as every shot is a bit like a sighter. I shot my 300WSM and in that course of fire the big calibre makes a lot of sense.
Don’t get me wrong, it’s fun to lie down and blast a possible score fast on an ET, and has been mentioned earlier shooting fast is a skill in itself.
But I go F-class shooting as a release for my mind. It forces you to focus only on hitting your target and everything else in your world is forgotten during that time.
If my shot string is all over in only a minute I don’t feel satisfied, that mind release was short and it’s not such a sense of achievement (I would call a good score luck most of the time if it’s shot in under a minute) as most likely the shooter got his string away in the same condition. And yes I am guilty of getting 10shots away in a minute or less as well.
The sense of satisfaction when there is a 3moa change, you see it, dial it and hit centre is definitely greater than waiting that change out which is what you would do in string fire.
I don’t think pairs firing will get off the ground here in Australia unfortunately. I am sure there would be a lot of shooters here that would disagree with my view of it. Also for a lot of older shooters lying down for 25 or 30minutes at a time might be too much of a stretch.
So at the moment in Australia we are in the position where a lot of open shooters (me included) are running ammo caddies, ejectors, dual ports and light recoiling calibres in search of the fastest shooting combo as with no delay these elements of equipment certainly make a big difference.
Ned Ludd
Silver $$ Contributor
This is not a realistic or fair comparison. As long as they fall within the specified rules, each individual shooter can choose for themselves what components and rifle setup to use, without affecting the choices of the other participants. Once E-targets have been implemented at a given range, there is no option to continue shooting on paper targets. ALL shooters will be forced to use E-targets, or else not participate. For that reason, the specific manner in which E-targets will be implemented in F-Class matches is worth consideration with input from ANY shooters potentially involved in their use.
XTR
F-TR obssessed shooting junkie
We could wish, but it's not going to happen in the US. I have to be content with the Sinclairs at Butner to get my Full Bore fix. Maybe I can make the match in Bridgeville this yr if they hold it again, and other than that there is SoA, but it's the week before the FCNC this yr and 3 weeks in Raton is a bit of a stretch for the travel budget.
Ned Ludd
Silver $$ Contributor
You never know how things will play out. I'd imagine that a 20-25 s delay on an E-target would be about as close as you might ever get to pair firing here in the U.S. However, it seems as though that is within the capabilities of some of the E-target systems, so any range that has such a setup could set the delay longer so as to mimic pair firing conditions if they chose to do so. I've had a few human pullers in the past that were working the target at a 25-30 s cadence...it was definitely more challenging!
I agree with all of this. Spot on.
What Eric said is correct.
Not confusing just not possible. The Government grant for the first lot of targets wont be repeated because we have already got ETs.
I reckon my ET electronics would work in a Kongsberg target. Would at least let you find a technological and probably cheaper path forward if you are being constrained in this way. It would be an interesting exercise, although academic at this point I imagine!
Yes academic not many have the cash to do much at all. This why the push to decrease the rebuild costs before a total collapse. Though that is a good idea to follow up on. Your electronics in a Kongsberg monitor box Mmmm. We have solved the issues with the target you do an update for the electronic side Mmmm. OZKONG.
I hate to say it Bindi but in this century your monitors are beyond redemption! As is your SDU!
They are simply dumb graphical terminals and from what I have seen only black and white and no USB or networking capability. And very expensive - as I recall they were A$7k each - more than double what mine cost and probably triple the cost if I were able to do a bulk build. By contrast my mound display units are full blown computers with all the fancy features we are now all used to, including USB, wifi, wired ethernet, and of course the 12" daylight readable colour touchscreen. All mounted in a purpose built steel enclosure.I happen to think that the Kongsberg targets are actually quite good. Just very expensive and heavy. But there is no sense in chucking them if they're still physically OK and have been well maintained. And I do think the future of targets is non-wood construction. I doubt that aluminium would be allowed anywhere in Australia - but the weights of the wooden targets (even mine) are an issue that needs to be addressed. The price has to come down significantly also. I think that's possible.
Traditionally the bulk of ET costs have been in the monitors and targets. Ten years ago there wasn't much that could be done about that. But that was then and now is now. I think something could be done if anyone was interested in the idea. Something to put our heads together about perhaps? I'm prepared to give it some thought if you guys are.
I think it could work.
Geoff.
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In between two hourly toilet breaks for my [sick] dog, I have been thinking a bit about this delay thing that is the primary thrust of this thread. I suspect that it is going to become an issue here in Australia again (please don't ask me why!) so such thought might not be wasted. I can see you are grappling with in in America! I don't see any consensus.
I personally, and as an ET designer, don't have a position on this one way or the other. I have provided the delay as an option to anyone who wants it (none have here that I am aware of!). But some comments a few pages back got me thinking a bit more about it - possible refinements if you like.
If one takes the view that from a shooter's point of view (NOT a technological point of view) the ET experience should emulate the manual target experience (including some limitations) as much as possible. Am I reading this correctly?
Right now I provide an optional delay of from 0 seconds to 15 seconds. 0 means no delay (of course) and the 15 was simply an arbitrary number I pulled out of the air - it could be anything.
The timer starts at the time of discharge - NOT the time of target impact that can be 1 1/2 seconds later at 1000 yards). Currently if the shooter fires another shot during the timing window it is ignored. On reflection, and after discussing it with someone, maybe it should record a miss. After all a major premise is when a bullet passes the muzzle for any reason a result has to be recorded. One could argue that popping a shot off while inside a shot suppression timing window is an illegal shot - and therefore should cop a miss. No?
I considered the shooters' situation in this. On a manual target he/she is presumably looking through the sight waiting for the target to reappear. In the ET scenario this is obviously not the case as the target is always in view. So I place a prominent popup window on the display that shows the down count. I asked a very experienced scope shooter about this and he said placement of the monitor is up to the shooter, and he personally places it so that he can see and manage it (the touchscreen) in such a way that there is no requirement to get out of position. In his case it doesn't matter which side of the rifle the monitor is.
Someone a few pages back suggested a random variable delay, to emulate the variable times it takes for manual markers to find a shot, plug in a spotter, and raise the target again. Well, this can be done. But what would the limits be? A range between 7 and 20 seconds perhaps? What, by the way, is the maximum delay you guys are contemplating? I figure 7 seconds is the minimum (otehr than no delay).
Then another thought came by. Experience with human markers shows that the further the shot is away from the centre - especially if outside the black - the longer the target cycle period will be. So maybe the random variable delay could also be weighted (increased) according to the impact distance from centre - just a bit?
I could do that without too much fuss. The building blocks are in place.
In regards to crossfires, well, because of my shot discharge detection system (what I call the MBDS), these can be managed and dealt with completely under computer control. Due to the recording system with resolution of 1 millisecond disputes can be sorted out very easily. Without MBD, meaning impact on targets are all you have to work with, dispute resolution becomes problematic as human perceptions (like scorers behind the shooters) get introduced and this complicates things. I can't see any other way without knowing when a shot has been fired, from where, at what time, and at what intended target (and by whom also!). Maybe I'm having a seniors moment with this?
If this is what you guys are looking for then let's develop the ideas. Let's not worry about dollars right now - I am interested in developing the ideas to provide (if I can) what shooters want rather than telling them what they're going to get. Without some direction this thread is going to get to 30 pages with no conclusion in sight.
Right now I am confused about what is wanted by way of a shot delay and what that entails (with crossfires an obvious complication). I indicated that yesterday.
BTW, in regards to computer managed Bisley style shooting, I have had to think in a similar manner. Only there haven't been many people to discuss that one with... I don't think it will ever be possible to emulate exactly the manual experience with ET's but I think we can get close.
Geoff.
I personally, and as an ET designer, don't have a position on this one way or the other. I have provided the delay as an option to anyone who wants it (none have here that I am aware of!). But some comments a few pages back got me thinking a bit more about it - possible refinements if you like.
If one takes the view that from a shooter's point of view (NOT a technological point of view) the ET experience should emulate the manual target experience (including some limitations) as much as possible. Am I reading this correctly?
Right now I provide an optional delay of from 0 seconds to 15 seconds. 0 means no delay (of course) and the 15 was simply an arbitrary number I pulled out of the air - it could be anything.
The timer starts at the time of discharge - NOT the time of target impact that can be 1 1/2 seconds later at 1000 yards). Currently if the shooter fires another shot during the timing window it is ignored. On reflection, and after discussing it with someone, maybe it should record a miss. After all a major premise is when a bullet passes the muzzle for any reason a result has to be recorded. One could argue that popping a shot off while inside a shot suppression timing window is an illegal shot - and therefore should cop a miss. No?
I considered the shooters' situation in this. On a manual target he/she is presumably looking through the sight waiting for the target to reappear. In the ET scenario this is obviously not the case as the target is always in view. So I place a prominent popup window on the display that shows the down count. I asked a very experienced scope shooter about this and he said placement of the monitor is up to the shooter, and he personally places it so that he can see and manage it (the touchscreen) in such a way that there is no requirement to get out of position. In his case it doesn't matter which side of the rifle the monitor is.
Someone a few pages back suggested a random variable delay, to emulate the variable times it takes for manual markers to find a shot, plug in a spotter, and raise the target again. Well, this can be done. But what would the limits be? A range between 7 and 20 seconds perhaps? What, by the way, is the maximum delay you guys are contemplating? I figure 7 seconds is the minimum (otehr than no delay).
Then another thought came by. Experience with human markers shows that the further the shot is away from the centre - especially if outside the black - the longer the target cycle period will be. So maybe the random variable delay could also be weighted (increased) according to the impact distance from centre - just a bit?
I could do that without too much fuss. The building blocks are in place.
In regards to crossfires, well, because of my shot discharge detection system (what I call the MBDS), these can be managed and dealt with completely under computer control. Due to the recording system with resolution of 1 millisecond disputes can be sorted out very easily. Without MBD, meaning impact on targets are all you have to work with, dispute resolution becomes problematic as human perceptions (like scorers behind the shooters) get introduced and this complicates things. I can't see any other way without knowing when a shot has been fired, from where, at what time, and at what intended target (and by whom also!). Maybe I'm having a seniors moment with this?
If this is what you guys are looking for then let's develop the ideas. Let's not worry about dollars right now - I am interested in developing the ideas to provide (if I can) what shooters want rather than telling them what they're going to get. Without some direction this thread is going to get to 30 pages with no conclusion in sight.
Right now I am confused about what is wanted by way of a shot delay and what that entails (with crossfires an obvious complication). I indicated that yesterday.
BTW, in regards to computer managed Bisley style shooting, I have had to think in a similar manner. Only there haven't been many people to discuss that one with...
I don't think it will ever be possible to emulate exactly the manual experience with ET's but I think we can get close.Geoff.
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