High expectations dashed

[old_heli_logger]

Barrel manufacturers invented the bore scope.
Hawkeye makes the best barrels

 

[magic mike]

I'm confused, your very first post said yesterday , indoor at 50 , now you said you shot this at 100 and out to 900 with less than stellar groups ? WHAT GIVES ? You either have one heck of a range , both indoor 50 yds and outdoor 100 all the way to 900 . Dang your too fast , slow down , take a breath and stop using that time warp machine . It'll shoot .
I'll tell you what , send me just the barrel and I'll prove it . I put money wear my mouth is , always ! Just be prepared to eat crow and pay up .

Three different ranges. One indoor 50 yds where I did the initial break-in. Second one, outdoors to 1,000 yds, all steel 2 MOA targets in 100 yard intervals. Third one outdoors, 100 yards max. This is all I have in my area that I can afford to shoot at.
Shooting on the 1,000 yd range is where I began to suspect something was amiss. I had zero problem repeatedly and consecutively hitting the 400 yard target with my AR-15 but I struggled mightily even getting on the target with the 6mm. Progressing out to 900 yds was an exercise in frustration. I put the gun away and spent the remainder of the day knocking the paint off the 600 yd target with my 308.

The gun shoots 5 shot bugholes at 50 yds but goes off the rails at 100+. Could very well be a scope (Sightron 10x50x60) tracking problem, I don't know. I'll take it off and put it on my 308 and see what happens.

Thanks,
Mike

 

[magic mike]

I disagree; the 105 ELDM are perfectly fine. If he was trying to eliminate a troublesome flier in a 5 shot string, then sure, buy the more expensive bullets to try. I've never had trouble getting hornady stuff to shoot sub half MOA consistently in every rifle I've got. But here again, maybe his barrel is quirky and doesn't like them. Maybe it's going to like Sierras alot. Hard to know without having some to try.

I agree with above that you should at least load touching the lands to start, not jumping, and run a ladder up to find max. Also, your rifle may not like varget, or at least your lot of varget. Do you have some RL-15 to try?

My RPR, which is a consistent 0.5 or better gun, didn't start really shooting for me until maybe 100 rnds or so in. Just another data point.

Thank you Evan. I too have had the same experience with Hornady bullets. Yes, I have tried RL-15 at long range but I have not printed it on paper yet. The best groups so far were shot with H4895 at 29.2gr. My current lot of Varget with the ELD-M's produced the worst 100 yard group at 2.281". I'll keep at it. It will either run or die at the feed trough.

Mike

 

[JFrank]

I’ll take that scope

I don’t know anyone who runs H4895 in a straight six.
Interesting “
Tangent ogive bullets and Varget seem the easiest to tune.

 

[magic mike]

Be sure and check front base screw it may be tight but not holding the base tight
I have had to shorten the front screw on all of mine. Take front screw out if the threads of the berral are bent over you found the problem

Thank you Whit. Been there, done that. The 6-48 threads were not well done when I first tried to mount the scope base and I could not get the screws to even start save for the front one which went in about two threads. I called Savage to verify the thread and then went about finding a tap so I could chase the threads. I have a ton of taps but not that one. After cleaning up the threads and verifying the screws were the proper length I bedded the rail.

Mike

 

[Evan]

I'd pull the scope base when you remove the scope and double check everything. None of the screws protrude into the bolt raceway, the base seats to the top of the action, etc.

Also might be worth loosening the ring caps on the scope and just snuging them down again. Some scopes go haywire when the caps are even mildly over-tightened. If you are using a torque wrench, I'd back off 5 or 10 inch-pounds from your current setting. Same on the base. The old German goodentight often will warp aluminum bases and suddenly your rings are misaligned and it cascades down the line like dominos.

EDIT: sorry, I was slow and missed your post. Still suggest retorquing everything a little lower.

 

[magic mike]

I’ll take that scope

I don’t know anyone who runs H4895 in a straight six.
Interesting “
Tangent ogive bullets and Varget seem the easiest to tune.

I agree, that's what I read too. You have been very helpful and thank you for taking the time to share your information.
I'm an old retired engineer who spent his years designing one of a kind pieces of equipment both manual and automated that had to work the first time they were turned on after installation into someone's production line. Very high pressure on me to get it right. You shut somone's plant down you are not a happy camper! Because of that I have always tried to use the best components possible within budget to design the machines. Good for the customer and also a bit of an insurance policy for me.
In the case of this rifle advertised as a "target" rifle and offered to the general public I made the wrong assumption that it would have a decently finished barrel and shoot at least or very close to 1 MOA with available factory ammunition. Apparently this is not the case. Who knows, maybe it will if I spend a bunch of time and money working up loads and sorting through several different bullets, powders and primers. I don't believe it is realistic for someone to have to spend hours of their time and a boat load of money on expensive competition grade bullets in order to realize a 1" group at 100 yards. If you want to see .2 size groups that's a whole different game and you will most likely have to pony up big time both in time and money to get there. Right now I am prepared to believe that the problem with my gun is either going to be with the barrel or the scope. I'm hoping it's the scope. I can get it fixed for free.
I went through this exact same thing with my 308 Remington and didn't want to have to do it again so that's why I bought this Savage. My buddies Savages shoot great, 223 and 260, and both have very much better looking barrels than mine. Sometimes your the windshield, sometimes your the bug.

Thanks again,
Mike

 

[Forum Boss]

"The gun shoots 5 shot bugholes at 50 yds but goes off the rails at 100+."

Honestly... that doesn't make any sense. We actually start our accuracy testing at 50. If it doesn't do one ragged hole at 50 (with 1/4th wind effect of 100) we try something else. If it DOES, we can almost guarantee well under 1/2 moa.

Suggest you try a tangent ogive bullet about .007" into the lands. By that I mean set the base to ogive .007 pass "first touch" measured with the LtoL tool. Take at least 4 measurements -- 3 should be within .002 if you are doing it right. WARNING: You may have to adjust your load when seating in the lands.

The Berger 80gr flatbase has shot well in every 6mm rifle we've tried. If it can't shoot those 80gr pills, send the rifle back to Savage. I had a friend with a Savage that wouldn't shoot. Turned out the action threads for the barrel were not done properly. Savage replaced the entire gun.

As others have noted, check your action screws.

 

[jackson1]

Don't own a Savage, but have seen them shoot some very pretty groups and score. May its just me, but I find a great deal of enjoyment in teaching a rifle to fly. Again, you may need to spend more quality time with your new puppy.

 

[magic mike]

"The gun shoots 5 shot bugholes at 50 yds but goes off the rails at 100+."

Honestly... that doesn't make any sense. We actually start our accuracy testing at 50. If it doesn't do one ragged hole at 50 (with 1/4th wind effect of 100) we try something else. If it DOES, we can almost guarantee well under 1/2 moa.

Suggest you try a tangent ogive bullet about .007" into the lands. By that I mean set the base to ogive .007 pass "first touch" measured with the LtoL tooth. Take at least 4 measurements -- 3 should be within .002 if you are doing it right. WARNING: You may have to adjust your load when seating in the lands.

The Berger 80gr flatbase has shot well in every 6mm rifle we've tried. If it can shoot those pills, send the rifle back to Savage I had a friend with a Savage that wouldn't shoot. Turned out the action threads for the barrel were not done properly. Savage replaced the entire gun.

As others have noted, check your action screws.

Thank you Boss. I will try the 80 gr.

This 50 yard target was shot the first time I took the gun to the range. Maybe 25 rounds down the tube. 29.5 gr Varget, Hornady 105 gr BTHP just touching, CCi 450, new Lapua brass. I was pretty happy. Actually did it a few times that day. I would be ecstatic if this was a 100 yard target. Wasn't really trying to shoot groups, just get some break-in rounds down the pipe and some chrono info on a few different loads.
The action screws were another item I called Savage about as they were so short that they only engaged the action by a maximum of two threads. I replaced the screws with longer ones which I trimmed to a proper length and they are torqued to Savage's specs.

Mike

 

[Whit holman]

Wow nice 50 you may have a rough throat that Caused your barrel to copper fall badly
I would do a heavy cleaning and start over

 

[Murray Brook]

As I stated earlier, I'm no expert but I just cannot see any reason why you would have a problem at 100 yds getting under an inch with a group like this at 50 yds. Maybe a copper problem showed up or a parallex problem with the scope. I would think that something certainly happened to the rifle/scope/bases between this group at 50 yds and your 100 yd testing. JMO

By the way did you get your collet die.

 

[magic mike]

As I stated earlier, I'm no expert but I just cannot see any reason why you would have a problem at 100 yds getting under an inch with a group like this at 50 yds. Maybe a copper problem showed up or a parallex problem with the scope. I would think that something certainly happened to the rifle/scope/bases between this group at 50 yds and your 100 yd testing. JMO

By the way did you get your collet die.

Yep, it's a head scratcher. On a positive note, I did order the 6PPC die from Optics Planet off their Ebay store but was issued a refund Monday along with a letter of apology for advertising something they didn't have. The good news is that a forum member contacted me and told me he had a custom 6mmbr die Lee made for him and a bunch of other stuff and made me a deal I couldn't refuse. Should be here tomorrow. Life is good!

Mike

 

[Murray Brook]

Good to hear.Reason I asked is I found a dealer that had 2 sets of 6 ppc Lee collet dies. I got one and there is one left.

 

[Ned Ludd]

Thank you Boss. I will try the 80 gr.

This 50 yard target was shot the first time I took the gun to the range. Maybe 25 rounds down the tube. 29.5 gr Varget, Hornady 105 gr BTHP just touching, CCi 450, new Lapua brass. I was pretty happy. Actually did it a few times that day. I would be ecstatic if this was a 100 yard target. Wasn't really trying to shoot groups, just get some break-in rounds down the pipe and some chrono info on a few different loads.
The action screws were another item I called Savage about as they were so short that they only engaged the action by a maximum of two threads. I replaced the screws with longer ones which I trimmed to a proper length and they are torqued to Savage's specs.

Mike

View attachment 1096650

Unless something bad occurred between range trips, shooting 2+" groups at 100 yd in no-wind conditions with loads that shot like this at 50 yd defies the laws of physics. More often than not when something like this is posted, there turns out to be a lot more to the story.

In a worse-case scenario, you put a new Krieger or Bartlein on it and it should do everything you want it to.

 

[Down South]

Unless something bad occurred between range trips, shooting 2+" groups at 100 yd in no-wind conditions with loads that shot like this at 50 yd defies the laws of physics. More often than not when something like this is posted, there turns out to be a lot more to the story.

This^^^^^^^^^^^

 

[Down South]

and I have seen both of those bullets shoot so bad you'd think the scope was loose.

I haven't seen that personally with Hornady bullets, they actually shoot better than I thought they would in my rifles I've tried them in.

 

[Ccrider]

Interesting post. I have owned several Savage rifles. Never had one that would not shoot better than 1 moa with the correct factory load. Your 50 yard group looks about right.
If the rifle is consistently grouping that good at 50, I would be hard to convince that it is not operator error causing the bad shooting at 100. Let someone else that can shoot decently shoot the rifle at 50 and 100 and see what happens.

 

[magic mike]

Unless something bad occurred between range trips, shooting 2+" groups at 100 yd in no-wind conditions with loads that shot like this at 50 yd defies the laws of physics. More often than not when something like this is posted, there turns out to be a lot more to the story.

This^^^^^^^^^^^

OK, wracking my brains here. The only thing I can think of that may have some sort of influence on the flight of my bullets at the 100 yard range I went to is that you have to shoot through an 8 or 10 foot long plastic culvert tube that begins a couple of feet from the muzzle. Maybe this has some effect on bullet flight path?? Still doesn't help me understand why I have zero problems getting on target with my AR at 400 yards but struggled with the 6mm. ????

 

[Ned Ludd]

OK, wracking my brains here. The only thing I can think of that may have some sort of influence on the flight of my bullets at the 100 yard range I went to is that you have to shoot through an 8 or 10 foot long plastic culvert tube that begins a couple of feet from the muzzle. Maybe this has some effect on bullet flight path?? Still doesn't help me understand why I have zero problems getting on target with my AR at 400 yards but struggled with the 6mm. ????

Have you been able to reproduce the very nice group you showed at 50 yds distance? If the answer is "yes", that's a good part of establishing a baseline to understand why the groups became so poor at distances of 100 yd and farther. When you observe such a dramatic difference in angular dispersion between 50 and 100 yd (i.e. one ragged hole groups going to 2+" groups), it's likely something else may be going on as I mentioned previously. It could be an unseen wind condition, a scope error (loose rings, reticle moving, parallax error, etc.), shooter error, or even something entirely unexpected.

Given your observations on examining the bore, I'm not implying there is nothing wrong with the barrel. However, I have seen posted images of the bores of Savage rifles that looked exactly as you described and they seemed to shoot just fine. So it might be worth trying to understand why there was such a big difference in angular dispersion at 50 and 100 yd before deciding the barrel is the whole problem and having it re-barreled.