F Class X Ring Comparisons: 284 Win & 25x47L

[257Blackjack]

Miles, with all due respect many great shooters have been trying to win at LR with smaller calibers since it all started. Most early matches were won by these smaller calibers as that’s what people were shooting. Back in 2005 or so matches were won with clean scores and very high x counts so the powers at be decided it was time for us to have our own targets. Our current .5 MOA X ring and 1 MOA ten ring are let’s just say pretty tough at LR. Clean scores are shot in some 20 shot matches but not in any multi day aggregates at least at any National level. Your facts on less recoil and powder consumption certainly have merit and is why I regularly still shoot my 6.5x47. The usable barrel on your cartridge should be very similar to a 284. All I can say is spin one of those puppies up and come out to Raton in September and let’s see how you do. That’s what’s great about the shooting sports is we can all experiment, test, and have fun while shooting. My money is on a 7mm or a 300 shooting 180s or heavier winning Nationals again this year as they have since 2008.

I understand the historical bias and the new bias, but these lighter bullets did not carry 0.345 G7 BC. Perhaps it's time for a revisit.

I was surprised that with these conservative velocities that the X ring hit probability was actually increased at 1000 yards over the the 600 in comparison to 284 Win. I guess in my mind I had bought into the expressed opinion that 25x47L was better suited for 600 yd, but the numbers have made me forget that until a later date.

If the 2/4% increase in X-Ring hit probability won't justify field trials to some guys at 600 and 1000 yds, they should know that hit % increase is only going to go up with our second bullet.

Just like PRS I totally understand 60-80% of the field will not change their setups no matter what the projections until they get beat and start asking questions. Last night a 25x47L finished in 6th place in the Bighorn Steel Classic and hopefully with any luck that shooter moves into the Top 5 after Day 2. Likely one of the only 25 Cal rifles in the match.

These things do not happen overnight.

To the guys in the F-Class community who want to try 25 cal out since it is ballistically advantageous "on paper" to 284, and is indeed less overbore than 284 Win or 284 Shehane, please let me know and I can help you get setup with top shelf blanks and bullets.

I have had a lot of messages from F Class guys that want to try 25x47 or 25 Creed but I hear the same 2-3 reservations.

How much of an X-Ring hit % increase is enough?

It sounds like to the majority of the crowd it will take someone else testing the waters and showing results before they consider it. Thankfully, there are always a few wildcatters in the bunch.

I would love to show up for F-Class but I run BJB and have an extremely demanding first job which is 24/7/365 and I am pretty much done competing until I quit that role.

With ramping sales, I should be able to focus on BJB full-time in 20-25 months. Then I can make a lot of F-Class matches and get whipped up on by the standard cartridges until I get my feet underneath me.

This year only about 1-2% of the rifles in F-Class will be 25 Cal so if any wins are recorded it's a great signal of things to come. In the PRS/NRL world those %'s are likely to be 10-15% and possibly quite more by the end of 2019 since quite a few top shooters and leaders are making the move to 25 Cal.

The first top shelf 1:7" 1.25" blanks will be getting chambered soon and I'm very thankful a few top F-Class guys will be piloting them!

 

[Quickoz]

Blackjack,

Its not the BC, its the weight combined with BC that keeps the heavies in the X ring. We plan for crap conditions and when you get headwinds and undulating ground contours, it can play havoc with vertical which will loose you points.

For example, I shoot 500m Fly aswell as F-Class. I run a 308 for both. When its calm or a bit windy, the 6mm will win. But when its gets rough and switchy winds and just not pleasant, my 308 with 155gr which is ballisticly inferior to the 6mm will win. Why, it holds better vertical in crap conditions and lets you agg better. You may not group as tight but your agg is better and you win.

Another comparsion was last week I shot 800m. I coached one guy running 155.5 in flicky full value to half value wind. He shot 10 ring high vertical. I then got down with my F/TR rifle running 200H and shot half X ring vertical. Yes the 200gr BC is better but it also shows how weight helps keep the vertical under control.

For short and mid range, your 25cal has alot of merit. But for LR, I just dont think it will keep it in the middle. But please come prove us wrong. We would love it.

 

[MattPeetz]

@Quickoz +1000. Something the computer just can’t figure out. Real world experience trumps.

 

[steve123]

My anecdotal evidence was shooting my 30-375R with 225's/77BC at 2935 fps vs my 6x47L with 105's/536BC at 3170 fps, a side by side if you will. Both in windy conditions/15mph-ish on 1.5 moa sized steel from 550Y to 1122Y. My conclusion was that the 30 was "much easier" to hit with!!! even though that 6 was smoking along and I shot it much more often. I guessed as much beforehand but I didn't think the difference would be as exaggerated as it was.

I got tired of 1500-ish rounds barrel life in 6x47L so I got a 6mmBR barrel this time, as we know it's not the best in the wind, not bad though with 105's. But for my purposes a 25 using Blackjacks is appealing, though not F-class. Looks like GAP is doing a 6mmGT cartridge which is halfway between Dasher and 6x47L in size. The .330-.345 BC/131gr going the same speed as .275 BC/105gr with 5 or so grains more powder sounds like a good combo when balancing barrel life with ballistics.

 

[memilanuk]

You're basing performance off a hit probability simulator, go shoot the same 3" x ring at 600 in some winds, and compare your hit ratio to the generated results. Then take it to a 1000 yards, do the same.

I used to do that... back when 155s ruled the world (or at least FTR)... a 2 mph wind speed increase (very hard to see the difference between 12 and 14 mph) would in theory take the bullet from the 9 ring on one side to the 9 ring on the other side. How the blazes we *ever* hit the 10 or X ring was a miracle...

It'll be interesting to watch what shakes out, though. It took a good long while for the .30 heavies to really come into their own in FTR... from 155 to 175 to 185 to 190 to 210 to 220 to 230... back down to 215 and finally settle (for now) at 200 gn. For a variety of reasons, the 7mm 180-ish bullets seem to be more successful in F-Open than the heavier 7 mil projectiles, even though you could, in theory, run a heavier / higher BC bullet from an RSAUM... relatively few people do it, and fewer do it with any significant degree of success.

@257Blackjack what do those WEZ simlations look like for a 6x47L or 6 Creed, running similar heavy-for-caliber projectiles? Again, some rounds that look, on paper (or the screen), like they should kick butt @ long range. And for the guys running PRS-ey style events where feeding from short action AICS mags is key, they do. Put them in a multi-day LR F-class event though, and they get ate up (as several people here have mentioned). It ain't for a lack of trying... it just didn't work out.

 

[MattPeetz]

There was a guy that thought that his hotrod 6 would kick every 7’s butt. People had said that it won’t hold up at LR.
SWN’s 2018 midrange. Wind was howling. He was coming in with something like 1400 straight points at MR. The wind smacked him down the board. The 7’a and 30’s dominated. Didn’t do well at LR either. Shortly after he started shooting an improved 7 and is always shooting that now when the wind blows. Tunnel ranges, the hot 6’s and the 25 will be hard to beat. Wind blows, all the money goes to the heavies.

 

[257Blackjack]

I used to do that... back when 155s ruled the world (or at least FTR)... a 2 mph wind speed increase (very hard to see the difference between 12 and 14 mph) would in theory take the bullet from the 9 ring on one side to the 9 ring on the other side. How the blazes we *ever* hit the 10 or X ring was a miracle...

It'll be interesting to watch what shakes out, though. It took a good long while for the .30 heavies to really come into their own in FTR... from 155 to 175 to 185 to 190 to 210 to 220 to 230... back down to 215 and finally settle (for now) at 200 gn. For a variety of reasons, the 7mm 180-ish bullets seem to be more successful in F-Open than the heavier 7 mil projectiles, even though you could, in theory, run a heavier / higher BC bullet from an RSAUM... relatively few people do it, and fewer do it with any significant degree of success.

@257Blackjack what do those WEZ simlations look like for a 6x47L or 6 Creed, running similar heavy-for-caliber projectiles? Again, some rounds that look, on paper (or the screen), like they should kick butt @ long range. And for the guys running PRS-ey style events where feeding from short action AICS mags is key, they do. Put them in a multi-day LR F-class event though, and they get ate up (as several people here have mentioned). It ain't for a lack of trying... it just didn't work out.

Milanuk, this was likely posted earlier but it basically a very popular 105 Hybrid load in FAST Dashers and 6x47Ls. At the bottom is a decent load from a Dasher with very sleek 110 smks.

The 25 BR and 25 BRA/DASHER comparisons in between show how the efficient bullet really picks up the slack of lower MV.

If you decide on specific MV for the 6x47L or 6 Creed I will run them at whatever barrel length comparison an interested guy wants to. I like running the numbers. Over two years of crunching the numbers and looking at trends is how the 131 ACE came out so efficient for weight and yields higher attainable muzzle velocities than many similar mass bullets.

I have multiple examples (most early comparisons done with our prototype run of 131 ACEs @ 1.415-18" OAL & 0.330 G7) comparing competitive cartridges and their Wind, Trajectory, and Energy and might as well list a few here below the WEZ Hit probability.

I understand the #'s aren't everything that goes into a winning rifle - nothing can replace the wind reading nut behind the trigger - but a designer can only go by the #'s.

Once we flesh out 3 high performing 25 Cal bullets it will be time to look at some of our 6mm designs, 0.277" or a very useful 0.284" but that will be at least 2 years.





Common Competitive Cartridges - (131 ACE at prototype length of 1.415" (now 1.440") and 0.330 G7 (now 0.345 G7).





Creedmoor Family Comparison with prototype 131 ACE (1.415" - 0.330 G7 then, 1.440" - 0.345 G7 now) data. The 25 Creed can actually run 2975-3070 fps. I'm not sure why this scenario was ran so slow at 2925 fps. A 22" 25x47L is running that speed lol





We have run so many of these and tried to be quite conservative with our attainable FPS to keep things as equivalent as we can. It's been a pain to me over the last 15 years since I started shooting seriously to see bullet MFGs ignorantly or intentionally overhype their performance data.

 

[Grimstod]

In gusting and switching winds the big heavies give you an advantage when you misjudge the wind by a couple mph. Even if it's 1/2 inch at 1000yrd advantage that's all it takes to keep you out of the 9 ring. A 9 in many F open fields will take you out of the competition. The 6.5x284 used to dominate F open until they started losing by a point or 2 in tough winds to the 284. Almost all have since switched to bigger and heavier.

PRS, BR and hunting are totally different applications than F class.

There are guys that make the smaller calibers work but it's the exception and not the norm.

Really it was barrel life that got everyone to switch.

 

[MattPeetz]

Really it was barrel life that got everyone to switch.

Not all. It was mainly ballistics and barrel life

 

[Shawnba67]

Wasnt there an article byy German Salazar where he did a head to head with 30-06/308 and the 6xc?
I just looked it up, and at 1000yd the 6xc edged out the 06, which edged out the 308. Tiny edges but still. And German Salazar is as qualified as any to do the actual test. Seems these new 257 bullets ought to out score the 6mm stuff.
Just saying the idea is sound. Whidden, Tubb Salazar all proved the little guys will shoot.

 

[greisdor]

Seems to me that the argument supports the fact you need to be a better shooter in windy conditions....

Heavy’s Seems to be better only because you can miss conditions and not kill your score.

 

[Ned Ludd]

Many of these comments are missing the whole point of the Blackjack bullet. With a muzzle velocity of 2940 fps, its predicted values for wind deflection at 1000 yd are dead equal to that of a 180 Hybrid launched at 2820 fps. It's real simple - this predicted windage is all because it has an advertised G7 BC of 0.345, as compared to approximately .360 for pointed 180 Hybrids, but it weighs 49 gr less. So you can easily push the Blackjack somewhere in the neighborhood of 120 fps faster than the heavier 180 Hybrid, more than enough to make up the very small deficit in BC.

There was a guy that thought that his hotrod 6 would kick every 7’s butt. People had said that it won’t hold up at LR.
SWN’s 2018 midrange. Wind was howling. He was coming in with something like 1400 straight points at MR. The wind smacked him down the board. The 7’a and 30’s dominated. Didn’t do well at LR either. Shortly after he started shooting an improved 7 and is always shooting that now when the wind blows. Tunnel ranges, the hot 6’s and the 25 will be hard to beat. Wind blows, all the money goes to the heavies.

This comment is the epitome of a straw man argument, in addition to being a totally cheap shot at a fellow competitor and very fine shooter. Although "hotrodded", this shooter's 105s were still giving up somewhere in the neighborhood of 0.5 MOA wind deflection to a straight .284 with 180 Hybrids at 600 yd, and over 1 MOA at 1000 yd. No one on the planet can read the wind well enough to overcome a ballistic disadvantage that large when shooting against other top competitors in challenging wind conditions. Such a result was completely foreseeable based on standard ballistic analysis.

In fact, that is a completely different scenario than a comparison of the Blackjack's performance with a 180 Hybrid, like comparing apples to oranges, and in fact, actually proves quite nicely that ballistic calculators DO work, exactly as they they're supposed to. The sole question here is whether two bullets of different weight but comparable predicted ballistic properties due to the combination of similar BCs and different muzzle velocities will exhibit different wind deflection at 1000 yd. In other words, will the lighter bullet somehow magically behave in a dramatically different manner than is predicted using its BC and muzzle velocity in a ballistic calculator? I guess if this is true, no one using a straight .284 with 180 Hybrids will ever win an F-Open match against shooters using a magnum caliber with 215s or 230s, because the lighter bullets' performance just doesn't hold up at longer range, right?

 

[urbanrifleman]

I guess if this is true, no one using a straight .284 with 180 Hybrids will ever win an F-Open match against shooters using a magnum caliber with 215s or 230s, because the lighter bullets' performance just doesn't hold up at longer range, right?

This should be stickied somewhere at the top of the forum. This whole cult mentality of "you must shoot XYZ because so and so shoots XYC and he won" seriously does not hold up under scrutiny.

I guess Tubb could bring his 33XC and shoot that. He just set a ELR world record at 2 miles with it not too long ago... I am pretty sure it will hold in the wind.

 

[dskogman]

The sole question here is whether two bullets of different weight but comparable predicted ballistic properties due to the combination of similar BCs and different muzzle velocities will exhibit different wind deflection at 1000 yd. In other words, will the lighter bullet somehow magically behave in a dramatically different manner than is predictedusing its BC and muzzle velocity in a ballisticcalculator? I guess if this is true, no one using astraight .284 with 180 Hybrids will ever win an F-Open match against shooters using a magnumcaliber with 215s or 230s, because the lighterbullets' performance just doesn't hold up at longer range, right?

If it was a straight BC battle it would be easy. Unfortunately it is a combination of a lot of things including BC, accuracy, repeatibility, tuneability, recoil, blah, blah... and of course the person pulling the trigger.
I’ve shot a few high BC bullets that look really good most of the time. It’s when they don’t that will kill you. I’ve got plenty of red and green boxes for fire forming.
If the .257 is good in all areas it may survive. I hope so. I would really rather shoot something like a 25x47.

 

[MattPeetz]

L
This comment is the epitome of a straw man argument, in addition to being a totally cheap shot at a fellow competitor and very fine shooter. Although "hotrodded", this shooter's 105s were still giving up somewhere in the neighborhood of 0.5 MOA wind deflection to a straight .284 with 180 Hybrids at 600 yd, and over 1 MOA at 1000 yd. No one on the planet can read the wind well enough to overcome a ballistic disadvantage that large when shooting against other top competitors in challenging wind conditions. Such a result was completely foreseeable based on standard ballistic analysis.



It’s far from a cheap shot. Its irony. We routinely rib each other. Your second paragraph says it all and what was said.
Don’t shoot on the tunnel ranges with the BJ’s. Shoot them on the tough ranges against the big guns, like Raton. Show how the bc is relevant on a lightweight.
For midrange, the BJ’s will be a smoker!

 

[dcali]

The idea that weight isn't baked into BC already is wrong. It just is. That's half the point of a BC. It makes inputting weight and drag into a calculator easier. That's literally the only point of a BC. (Well that, and making it easier to make general comparisons about bullets without having to look at charts).

That's not to say the Blackjack is going to dominate F Class at either mid or long range. At mid-range, raw precision becomes more important, especially in a light wind. These are long bullets, and it would not surprise me to see them take a back seat in raw precision to some shorter offerings. At long range, if the BC is accurate (and I'm told that these are actual measured values), and they can be pushed fast enough to overtake the .284, they will do just that - exactly what the calculator says they will. Whether or not that happens is anyone's guess, but we're going to find out. Should be fun.

But one thing is certain - if it is not a .284 killer, it won't be because "heavy bullets are better in the wind than light bullets given the same BC". That's wrong in theory and in real life. There are literally decades of testing and billions of dollars spent on this topic. It will be because they can't be pushed fast enough, or barrel life will be poor, the BC is just optimistic, or they won't shoot accurately enough. Or maybe because people are too stubborn to change. I'm sticking with my .308.

 

[Ned Ludd]

If it was a straight BC battle it would be easy. Unfortunately it is a combination of a lot of things including BC, accuracy, repeatibility, tuneability, recoil, blah, blah... and of course the person pulling the trigger.
I’ve shot a few high BC bullets that look really good most of the time. It’s when they don’t that will kill you. I’ve got plenty of red and green boxes for fire forming.
If the .257 is good in all areas it may survive. I hope so. I would really rather shoot something like a 25x47.

Agreed. However, the implication in this thread from some of the naysayers is that lighter bullets exhibit much poorer wind behavior than might be predicted by their BC and velocity. If that were true, there wouldn't be much reason to have a dedicated rifle built/chambered and spend time and effort exploring their inherent precision and ease of tuning. Like you, the idea of a competitive 25x47 cartridge and bullet in F-Open appeals to me, and I'd like to see it succeed, even if its use is primarily favored in MR competition, similar to shooting a .223 Rem 90 VLDs in F-TR.

 

[257Blackjack]

Glad to see some good discussion. Crazy day in the oilfield and in the midst of it all I hear about an article in TRIGGER covering 25 Creedmoor, but was too busy to go get a copy. A good read if you guys are swinging by Wal-Mart, Bass Pro, Cabela's etc.

As others have reported on the 0.330 G7, the author had similar experience at some 1036 yards as shown below.





Other good news, I will be picking up an old F-Class rig from a friend to build 25x47L and a 25 WSSM utilizing RCC brass. The first because I know how accurate the 25x47 behaves and 25 WSSM because it's fun and has nearly the exact overbore index of 284 win!

 

[Medic505]

Here comes Tubb. So y'all can shoot against him at the big meets and we will see how he does. He has no plans to change from his 6XC and his newest 115 DTAC and an Adapative Rifle. So, what happens when he beats everyone?

I had to dig some but I found the 2017 F Open results for the Southwest Nationals. Your hero shot that match. Looks like he finished at the bottom of the Master division with a 1197-29x. F Open winning score was 1247-84x. Winning F-TR score was 1230-53x . I shot a 1210-31 with a 308. Yeah, those little bullets work really well.

 

[rardoin]

…...SNIP..... At mid-range, raw precision becomes more important, especially in a light wind. These are long bullets, and it would not surprise me to see them take a back seat in raw precision to some shorter offerings. At long range, if the BC is accurate (and I'm told that these are actual measured values), and they can be pushed fast enough to overtake the .284, they will do just that - exactly what the calculator says they will. Whether or not that happens is anyone's guess, but we're going to find out.

Same can be said of the 150 SMK/6.5mm. I have had some really great groups in testing and the B.C. holds true as published in my runs at 600 and 1000yds. However, the "raw accuracy", should I rephrase as consistent accuracy, has not been there for me...yet. I was dropping points with very unexpected shots not explained by conditions. Switched back to a tried and true lower B.C. 142 bullet and scores went back to my usual performance. I will give them another go at 1000 this weekend running them slower and in a faster twist barrel. At the 2900-2920 fps range I will run them at they will shoot inside of a .284/184gr/2850 fps.....but will they drop more points due to less precision? Will the Black Jack (made by Sierra?) be as consistent as Berger 180/184gr in spite of a better B.C.? I'm a sceptic but I hope to prove myself wrong this weekend.