F Class X Ring Comparisons: 284 Win & 25x47L

[257Blackjack]

We have ordered over 475 fast twist 25 cal barrel blanks for this quarter, 176 reamers, and another 1/4 million bullets. Things are picking up fast but most of this action is in the Hunting and PRS/NRL community.

I have been having great talks with some F-Class folks as the interest has now spread into this arena. Many are going down the 25x47L road with a few doing 25 Creedmoor and a handful doing 25x284.

Just like our original growth at our product launch, we understand that guys have to have barrel blanks! So, we ordered 20 Blake Barrel and Rifle 1.25" blanks to get the interested F-Class guys an immediate option.

Please check out this comparison and let me know what your F-Class load, bullet, and velocity is so I can run a much fuller comparison down the road when 32" 25x47L velocities are seen first hand.

A number of guys who are gearing up for 25x47L in 32" think they will be running over 3100 fps pretty easily.

In a game where an extra X matters, 2-4% increase with 42% less recoil and powder consumption cannot hurt!


I will be keeping 3 of these 20 blanks for my own rifles and be gearing up for a 25 Creedmoor or Creedmoor improved at 32". : )

I am very thankful for Blake Barrel and Rifle working with us to get these blanks out to interested parties. It's fun to see guys experiment and publish their results. Below I will post a comparison on 25 BR to Dasher. A local guy built a 25 BR for a PRS rifle and the AB Analytics Hit Probability shows 25 BR can now hang and outperform 6 Dasher too.

 

[Jay Christopherson]

I look forward to competing against 25 caliber bullets at LR F-Class matches. Particularly when it gets windy.

 

[Monte F]

I have a set of 25-270 ICL (Ram) dies. Maybe I can find a buyer for them now.

 

[257Blackjack]

I look forward to competing against 25 caliber bullets at LR F-Class matches. Particularly when it gets windy.

Can you please to point to a document apart from anecdotal evidence that superior ballistics are indeed trumped by "heavier bullets always win" when any hit probability simulator does not make that assumption? I'd actually like to see something so I can research the Why.

I don't mind the skepticism. I haven't been around too long, but I remember when everyone said the same things about 30 cal that they say about 284 now.

Myself, I trust numbers. And the lower recoil. And the lower powder consumption.

Like other times in ballistics and cartridge development, I am very thankful and enjoy the enthusiasm of our early adopters. Gaining traction in target disciplines is difficult, but there are a number of excited competitors regarding this 131 ACE and the second bullet we will be releasing in 2019. The second bullet will increase the performance inside of 1100 yards compared to the 131 ACE, where 600 yds and 1000 yards lies - AND it will run faster than the 131. : )

 

[Jay Christopherson]

Can you please to point to a document but anecdotal evidence that superior ballistics are indeed trumped by "heavier bullets always win" when any hit probability simulator wo? I'd actually like to see something so I can research the Why.

I don't mind the skepticism. I haven't been around too long, but I remember when everyone said the same things about 30 cal that they say about 284 now.

Myself, I trust numbers. And the lower recoil. And the lower powder consumption.

Like other times in ballistics and cartridge development, I am very thankful and enjoy the enthusiasm of our early adopters. Gaining traction in target disciplines is difficult, but there are a number of excited competitors regarding this 131 ACE and the second bullet we will be releasing in 2019. The second bullet will increase the performance inside of 1100 yards compared to the 131 ACE, where 600 yds and 1000 yards lies - AND it will run faster than the 131. : )

I dunno. I guess I would point you to actual results in real F-Class LR matches. Sort of same argument where ballistically similar (on paper) 6mm or 6.5mm calibers struggle at F-Class LR matches. Myself, I trust empirical evidence over a plot analysis. Like I said, I look forward to meeting a highly overbore, 25 caliber bullet at long range in competition. If 25 caliber bullets beats me at LR, I expect I'll change my tune.

 

[257Blackjack]

I dunno. I guess I would point you to actual results in real F-Class LR matches. Sort of same argument where ballistically similar (on paper) 6mm or 6.5mm calibers struggle at F-Class LR matches. Myself, I trust empirical evidence over a plot analysis. Like I said, I look forward to meeting a highly overbore, 25 caliber bullet at long range in competition. If 25 caliber bullets beats me at LR, I expect I'll change my tune.

Yes the 6.5 150 SMK should be able to compete but I have not seen the results or heard any noise about it. The 150 smk though would require a decent amount of powder to launch for competitive exterior ballistics. The 131 shown above and the second bullet won't suffer the lack of attainable MV from smaller cases like the heavy 6.5s.

I'm glad you brought up the Overbore situation as I've been meaning to create an updated chart like the one posted on Accurate Shooter's Daily Bulletin long ago.

If we entertain this as practical a method as any besides burning out some barrels, this indicates 25x47 and 25 Creed are reasonable choices.

25x47 = 906 - very close to the not-overbore category
25 Creed = 1012.1 - 29 units less than 284 Win (82 less than 284 Shehane)
25-260 or SLR = 1031.3 - for all practical purposes equivalent to 284 Win
25x284 = 1272.3 - Overbore for sure, but a joy to shoot out to 3/4 mile. : )

I've had a few guys tooling up for 25x284 in F-Class and I have recommended 25 SLR or simply trying out 25x47L but you can't stop some guys from pushing the envelope.

 

[Quickoz]

I don't think they will hold the vertical that a 7mm or 30cal will in head and tail winds. That's one main advantage and why we think heavier is better. BC is awesome but X ring vert in crap conditions is final. Be good to see how they go. Would be a good cal maybe for 300-600yds perhaps?

 

[Grimstod]

The 25x47L seams like the perfect blend of bow ratio and ballistic performance. Especially for the 600 and 1000 yard game. I am predicting some good wind for shooters with this combination.

 

[ShootDots]

Can you please to point to a document apart from anecdotal evidence that superior ballistics are indeed trumped by "heavier bullets always win" when any hit probability simulator does not make that assumption? I'd actually like to see something so I can research the Why.

I don't mind the skepticism. I haven't been around too long, but I remember when everyone said the same things about 30 cal that they say about 284 now.

Myself, I trust numbers. And the lower recoil. And the lower powder consumption.

Like other times in ballistics and cartridge development, I am very thankful and enjoy the enthusiasm of our early adopters. Gaining traction in target disciplines is difficult, but there are a number of excited competitors regarding this 131 ACE and the second bullet we will be releasing in 2019. The second bullet will increase the performance inside of 1100 yards compared to the 131 ACE, where 600 yds and 1000 yards lies - AND it will run faster than the 131. : )

Here is something to ponder. I have been in the F-Open game for quite some time. I have shot about everything there is to shoot. I am getting on in age and recoil is a PITA anymore to me. I went "light" for a bit over 1 year. I went with a 6.5 x 284, a .260A.I. a 6 x 47L and a 6 Creedmoor. The 6.5s were shooting 140s anf the 6s were shooting the 107SMK and the 115 DTAC. Both of those babies (6mms) were screaming out of the barrel over 3100f.p.s. respectively! At mid-range I did well>>>but lost my share to some others in both 6mms and 7mms. BUT I did pretty well. However, during that time, I NEVER won a long-range match! Try as I might, those light bullets, even in moderate wind, were whipsawed all over. Once they got "out-there" well past 600 and were slowing down, they were blown all over. So, in order to get back to the long-range winners circle, I started on my .300WSM project. I can NOT tell you WHY the ballistic table state one thing and "reality" states another>>>it just does. Additionally, getting to make the 6s and 6.5s work with very fast twists for caliber and high speeds, created another whole host of "bullet problems" too lengthy to delve into here.. So on this one, I am with @Jay Christopherson about the "heavies"..

 

[br1111]

I look forward to competing against 25 caliber bullets at LR F-Class matches. Particularly when it gets windy.

just curious, what is the most winning cartridge in long range f class?

 

[280man]

just curious, what is the most winning cartridge in long range f class?

A 7mm Shooting 180s in Open Class. FTR is 308s launching 200s

 

[flintcreek6412]

In gusting and switching winds the big heavies give you an advantage when you misjudge the wind by a couple mph. Even if it's 1/2 inch at 1000yrd advantage that's all it takes to keep you out of the 9 ring. A 9 in many F open fields will take you out of the competition. The 6.5x284 used to dominate F open until they started losing by a point or 2 in tough winds to the 284. Almost all have since switched to bigger and heavier.

PRS, BR and hunting are totally different applications than F class.

There are guys that make the smaller calibers work but it's the exception and not the norm.

 

[280man]

Miles, with all due respect many great shooters have been trying to win at LR with smaller calibers since it all started. Most early matches were won by these smaller calibers as that’s what people were shooting. Back in 2005 or so matches were won with clean scores and very high x counts so the powers at be decided it was time for us to have our own targets. Our current .5 MOA X ring and 1 MOA ten ring are let’s just say pretty tough at LR. Clean scores are shot in some 20 shot matches but not in any multi day aggregates at least at any National level. Your facts on less recoil and powder consumption certainly have merit and is why I regularly still shoot my 6.5x47. The usable barrel on your cartridge should be very similar to a 284. All I can say is spin one of those puppies up and come out to Raton in September and let’s see how you do. That’s what’s great about the shooting sports is we can all experiment, test, and have fun while shooting. My money is on a 7mm or a 300 shooting 180s or heavier winning Nationals again this year as they have since 2008.

 

[Milo 2.0]

Can you please to point to a document apart from anecdotal evidence that superior ballistics are indeed trumped by "heavier bullets always win" when any hit probability simulator does not make that assumption? I'd actually like to see something so I can research the Why.

You're basing performance off a hit probability simulator, go shoot the same 3" x ring at 600 in some winds, and compare your hit ratio to the generated results. Then take it to a 1000 yards, do the same.
Shooting in calm conditions, shooting in steady conditions, even harsh full value winds is somewhat easy, adapt for the conditions.
This is no different than what I said on SH in the one train wreck post, in switching up winds, the farther out you go, the chance of lighter bullets flight being disrupted magnifies, and it usually shows up vertically.
Sometimes, real world experience trumps a computer.

 

[Dos XX]

Heavies have ruled in what I've always referred to as a bumpy or turbulent wind, which is what I seem to shoot in just about all the time. Think about how bumpy it is flying in an airplane when the pilot says there is going to be turbulence. This can be caused by the features in the terrain at the range, as well as other things. A great test would be to try the smaller bullets on target 98 or 99 at Ben Avery when there is a right to left wind. You would obviously need to try it next to a known performer like a 180 or 184 in a 7mm.

I think the idea is a great one, and testing for improvement is always a good thing, in my opinion.

 

[Shawnba67]

I absolutely love hearing about new ideas. And I really like your idea.
BR and F Class guys are a fickle bunch.
There are quite a few recoil intollerant shooters out there. Things like this are great for us soft shoulders!

 

[Nature Boy]

25 Bob Moore?

 

[B Nettesheim]

I really hope that this works out for you, it’s neat seeing this new stuff come around. But in reality our f class game is turning to the larger 30s in F-open.
Secondly convincing some of our better shooters to change their rifles to a smaller caliber will not be easy, as we have seen ourselves or someone else walking off the line on a windy day wishing the heavier 200, 215, or 230 Berger’s were coming out the end of the barrel.

 

[dcali]

These are very heavy for caliber. I suspect that people may be selling them short without trying them. Time will tell but once upon a time it was laughable that a .223 could beat a .308 cross course. Or that a .223 could beat a .308 at midrange f class.

If you need to push them out of an overbore case, the problem will be barrel life not ballistics. The .284 is not the best ballistic performer out there and can be bested by smaller calibers without much effort. But it’s a damn good compromise when it comes to all the relevant factors. A smaller .25 may be just as good without the recoil.

 

[MattPeetz]

It’s good to see others stating the obvious for LR.
For mid range, it will be a smoker. LR it won’t hold for f class.
I’ve done the 6.5’s with 150’s that match the 180’s on paper but reality squashed all that. Heavies win.