dcali
Bullet Maker
It yields when you *seat* the bullet.
Annealing, Best Method? Best Equipment?
- Thread starter Lucky7
- Start date
It yields when you *seat* the bullet.
ok so one more post just for you Damon
please do not tell my cases they should be being annealed to get SD's below 5, seems like they don't know that. I can post dozens of similar target scans and spreadsheet data that show the same thing.
http://forum.accurateshooter.com/attachments/varget-test-jpg.1092867/
Based upon my experience I would have to agree with this after a screw up in my loading room. I'd just annealed my 6br Lapua brass using the salt bath method, and after cleaning and polishing the brass, began loading. As I seated my first bullet and measured the CBTO, I got a number that made no sense.
Back tracking my steps I soon realized that I'd just seated a 130 gr 6.5 mm VLD into a 6 mm neck instead of the intended 105 gr HPBT. It went in smooth as butter with no indication of the error I'd just made. Had I not made the CBTO check, I could have had quite a surprise at the range.
I'm fairly sure that if the case neck was work hardened through multiple load cycles that my mistake would surely have led to a cracked neck or a noticeably high seating pressure.
Thickness and clearances are matters for inductive annealing.
There are no calculations or custom rigging needed with dipping.
Set the pot temperature at ~800-900degF, dip the cases. Done.
You CANNOT get it wrong.
Rick300
Gold $$ Contributor
I agree, but I usually set the temperature between 950 -1000f. Get a metronome app for timing and it's hard to screw up. I noticed much more consistency sizing and seating. Is the AMP better? I would have to think most certainly so. Is it $1300 better and will you know the difference????? Maybe, maybe not.
AMP Annealer hands down the best there is!!
dcali
Bullet Maker
Oh, I don't anneal and I get perfectly good results. But annealing does do *something*, and I'm not willing to say it can't help in some cases.
From an engineering perspective (I ran the mathematics for all calibers up to 30 cal.). With annealed brass (Yield 15KSI) with .001 neck expansion after bullet seating the neck has yielded. At 1/4 hard (Yield 27KSI), the 30 caliber yields on the outside and the inside of the neck is on the verge. All others are still yielding. So, what does this prove? Not much because regardless of the annealed state, the expansion during bullet seating is the same and so long as the case neck condition is at the same metallurgical state, accuracy will be unaffected.
For guidance on this, take a peek into the short range benchresters. They use bushing dies and size their necks for about .001 neck tension. The expansion during firing is about .001 or .002. They don’t anneal, at least for every firing. I’ve said many times that annealing every firing is wasted time. And annealing stuff like 223 or hunting ammo is also wasted time. But if you have done caseforming and invested a lot of time in prepping brass then anneal, but about every third or fourth firing will suffice.
For guidance on this, take a peek into the short range benchresters. They use bushing dies and size their necks for about .001 neck tension. The expansion during firing is about .001 or .002. They don’t anneal, at least for every firing. I’ve said many times that annealing every firing is wasted time. And annealing stuff like 223 or hunting ammo is also wasted time. But if you have done caseforming and invested a lot of time in prepping brass then anneal, but about every third or fourth firing will suffice.
dcali
Bullet Maker
That's pretty much the conclusion I came to here: https://bisonballistics.com/articles/case-neck-tension-a-stress-analysis
Jarhead6870
Gold $$ Contributor
I tested some of the more common methods used to anneal; a homemade annealer, an Annealeez, Bench Source, Giraud and AMP. My testing was not scientific in scope; loaded ammunition was shot for groups while taking readings on a chronograph for ES and SD. Rounds annealed with a torch we’re set-up using dummy cases and 750 degree Tempilaq inside the necks. Sample size for each machine was 10 rounds shot over a MagnetoSpeed using a Bartlein barreled 6.5x47. All rounds were annealed, sized, primed and loaded in the same reloading session to insure they were as close to identical as possible. They were shot on a morning where the ambient temperature from start to finish was less than 5 degrees thus DA remained relatively constant throughout the test.
As for my results; my testing did not show any significant differences between annealing methods/machines. ESs were all between 15-18 fps and SDs between 5-6. I fired two 5-shot groups from each machine, ten shots total, with all groups being .5 MOA and less, which is normal for this rifle.
My take away from this was that it really doesn't make any difference how you anneal if you set the machine up properly. Ease of use/set-up, manual feed vs hopper, torch vs induction, etc. are considerations to weigh when deciding which annealer you want to purchase. My test showed me that the cost of an annealer has nothing to do with the end result.
Hope this helps...
As for my results; my testing did not show any significant differences between annealing methods/machines. ESs were all between 15-18 fps and SDs between 5-6. I fired two 5-shot groups from each machine, ten shots total, with all groups being .5 MOA and less, which is normal for this rifle.
My take away from this was that it really doesn't make any difference how you anneal if you set the machine up properly. Ease of use/set-up, manual feed vs hopper, torch vs induction, etc. are considerations to weigh when deciding which annealer you want to purchase. My test showed me that the cost of an annealer has nothing to do with the end result.
Hope this helps...
Ccrider
Gold $$ Contributor
@Jarhead6870,
Is your average Es annealing with the Amp 15? I would expect single digits.
Is your average Es annealing with the Amp 15? I would expect single digits.
Why would you expect that? Annealing helps but if the load is not in an area that produces single digit ES then annealing can not perform miracles and give you that. Also single digit ES is not a guarantee for small groups either but it may help.
Ccrider
Gold $$ Contributor
For better or worse, I thought that if the brass is prepped the same, same neck tension, same amount of powder, that Es would be the same or very close, although the load may or may not shoot accurately. I take it I have this wrong.
R.Morehouse
Gold $$ Contributor
Don't get to hung up on ES. You may find that if you are working with PC at a given range your most accurate load after testing may just be in the ES of 15 to 20 range. I anneal every time & it gives me confidence that I am doing right by my brass and loads. Put the chrono away and do your PC testing at your target range. When you find your most accurate tune then run it through the chrono. just for kicks.....There are a few different ways to shoot small and they aren't all in the numbers that's for sure.
Regards
Rick
Regards
Rick
Jarhead6870
Gold $$ Contributor
Yes sir. Let me add that I DO NOT neck turn or weight sort brass, bullets or primers. My brass is wiped clean, annealed, sized on a Redding T-7 using a type “S” FL sizer, primed, necks dry-lubed, powder dropped with an A&D 120 and bullets seated on the Redding T-7.
There are so many variables in loading good ammunition and the "hole" can be deep. This ammunition performs very well for my needs on random targets out to 1350 yards with the process, equipment and time I have available to reload.
Ccrider
Gold $$ Contributor
Yep. The hole is deep. Bottomless.
@r moorehouse, I promise, I am not hung up on Es. I have shot enough .0 and .1,groups with 30+Es while practicing to know that Es is just one factor to consider. However, if my Es is not single digit, I tend to think I am not doing something consistent in the process or that my brass needs annealing.
@r moorehouse, I promise, I am not hung up on Es. I have shot enough .0 and .1,groups with 30+Es while practicing to know that Es is just one factor to consider. However, if my Es is not single digit, I tend to think I am not doing something consistent in the process or that my brass needs annealing.
ballisticdaddy
Silver $$ Contributor
I have been annealing all of the brass i shoot every firing for a few years now. I started with a Giraud propane fed torch using 750 degree tempilaq and had good success. I full length resize and have all the measurements noted in my reloading book. Once I had switched over to annealing with the AMP I was surprised that I had to change the setup for my dies as the brass was softer and had less spring back and even had to change my neck bushings. Annealing is not quite as cut and dry as a lot of folks are trying to say in this thread. I had sent an email to AMP asking what the target temperature was for both their stated settings as well as the Aztec feature would be and they replied saying it was trade secret and would not share. I have learned through this process that there is a large difference between heating brass to the point of relieving work hardening and actually annealing the brass. For those salt bath users that have expressed all you have to do is heat the pot to 700-800 degrees.....how long does the brass need to be dipped in order to heat to reach the desired temperature and how are you confirming that was achieved?
Relieving work hardening isn't a single point, there's a range of hardness that can be achieved before crossing over into fully annealing the material. I can't imagine AMP would have users fully annealing their brass, so to me it's reasonable that because the technology allows tight control of time and temperature, they're able to go deeper into the recovery phase without crossing over. That allows you to get softer brass than you would be getting with 750. If you ran higher temperature Tempilaq the cases would be more similar but without as good of temp control with a torch it also becomes more likely to go to far.
Murray Brook
Silver $$ Contributor
ballisticdaddy
Silver $$ Contributor
That is probably the best salt annealing kit I have seen so far but don't think I am selling my AMP Mark II quite yet
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