Annealing, Best Method? Best Equipment?

[Texas10]

If you are overworking your brass using conventional dies, annealing will indeed extend your brass life and help with your SD/ES numbers however, as some have noted above, superior brass prep will trump annealing in the long run.

I do my best to not overwork my brass, but if I do need to anneal, I use the salt bath method for its simplicity and low cost. My 223 brass is only neck sized, almost never needs trimmed and shoots quite well for my level of ability. IOW, it shoots better than I do.

 

[JimSC]

Easy there my friend, I only quoted/asked where you read about the part pertaining to elasticity and annealing.

my bad, apologies.

Annealing does relieve stresses caused by work hardening by heating it until re-crystallization occurs. This increases the metals ductility however it does not change the metals elasticity in any way. Most people which included myself at one time, confuse elasticity and ductility when they are two separate characteristics and the difference is explained in the first link of my first post

https://www.thestructuralmadness.com/2014/02/ductility-and-elasticity.html

I was nervous as a cat for the first month or two after I stopped annealing but after a couple of matches and some chrono work my numbers kept steady with a slight improvements over time. That was several months back and I have no intention of ever annealing another case. Like Texas 10 said if I you are doing major wildcatting then annealing might be useful but for most of us it is a waste of time and money

 

[shooterjon]

I know there are so many opinions on which Annealing process to use and what is the best equipment to use but I always have concerns if I have done it correctly?

I have been researching the Salt Bath Annealing vs Torch Annealing and am very confused for sure now!

If cost is not a factor (hypothetically speaking) what is the absolute best method of Annealing brass and what equipment is the best to use?

Any help would be greatly appreciated! Thank you

AMP Annealer With Aztec Feature,This is what I use ,seems to be SPOT ON !

 

[mikecr]

I don't see anything about AMP that would make it as good as simply dipping at correct temperature.

 

[Liven The Dream]

Mikes works for my needs ?
I shot Palma and F-Class ?

 

[TikkaSporter]

I don't see anything about AMP that would make it as good as simply dipping at correct temperature.

Its safer?

 

[JimPag]

I don't see anything about AMP that would make it as good as simply dipping at correct temperature.

Are u kidding me? AMP has taken the guesswork out of annealing. Once u know the program of the case that your going to anneal, it is annealed perfectly everytime. You can't say that with any flame type annealer.

 

[22DASHER]

I picked up an AMP one week ago. Previously I had annealed using the torch and socket method, Benchsoure and Annealez. Comparing them to the AMP is like comparing Sierra and Honady to VaporTrails. It’s not even a comparison.

 

[TC260]

@JimSC No worries. Rereading my post I shouldn't have used the word "theory" since that's often used in a sarcastic way. In my mind I was only thinking about the reference to atomic vs molecular changes, my interest was only in the science behind that statement.

When it comes to people's shooting results annealing vs not annealing, I'd never argue people's experience with it. I suspect the reason there isn't more definitive answers on it is because like so many other things in this hobby, "it depends". There's a million little variables in what we do and depending on an individuals set of circumstances, sometimes annealing may help and sometimes it won't. Both can be true.

 

[Gina1]

http://forum.accurateshooter.com/threads/induction-brass-annealer-redux.3908353/

you build it. it's fast and it's accurate. take a look.

 

[Webster]

What do you expect to accomplish ?

I used to anneal after every firing, I got sub MOA groups at mid and long range, had good brass life. Then I read up on elasticity and how it is only affected at the atomic level while annealing only affects the brass at the molecular level late last summer. So I stopped annealing and eight reloads later I still get sub MOA groups at mid to long range, SD's in the low single digits and good brass life. Actually my groups are better than they were when I was annealing but I attribute that to practice and more attention during case prep on brass length and primer seating not any difference in the brass. If you decide on a Annealeeze, I have a well used one modded with a digital speed controller I will sell cheap. If you decide to do some research on elasticity and ductility before spending $500 to $1500 here are some links

https://www.thestructuralmadness.com/2014/02/ductility-and-elasticity.html

https://www.makeitfrom.com/material-properties/UNS-C26800-CW506L-Yellow-Brass

https://www.uni-ulm.de/fileadmin/website_uni_ulm/uzwr/mmsm/mmsm1-ws1314/mmsm1-handout-plasticity.pdf

http://www.virginia.edu/bohr/mse209/chapter6.htm

I was involved with metallurgical failure analysis for 45 years. I wouldn't make any decisions based on those three articles. They are general info and not related to accurate shooting. I think you have to make your own decision or rely only on what the top shooters do and how they justify it. I have 2 varnint rifles that shoot under .400" groups and I anneal with a torch about every 4 firings or anneal everything if 1 case fails only to prevent neck cracks.

 

[CPorter]

So JimSC, how much does the neck size change when you transition from elastic deformation to ductile deformation? After firing is your neck size exactly the same? If the answer is no then you went beyong elastic deformation.

 

[mikecr]

Are u kidding me? AMP has taken the guesswork out of annealing. Once u know the program of the case that your going to anneal, it is annealed perfectly everytime. You can't say that with any flame type annealer.

I said DIPPING, not burning.
As far as guess work, programming, and high dollar hooplah,, none of that is needed for dipping brass in the correct temperature medium. Right?
And with dipping, I can anneal ALL cartridges, to any depth I choose, without all the rocket science and added costs.

 

[JBO]

AMP

 

[dcali]

The neck usually yields when you seat a bullet. How much neck tension you really get is largely defined by when the neck yields. This is why hardness is important.

Annealed brass yields almost immediately, especially in smaller calibers. With harder brass you can run a very light neck tension and never yield the neck. Which approach is best I won’t comment on, as I don’t think there is an unambiguous answer.

 

[JimPag]

I said DIPPING, not burning.
As far as guess work, programming, and high dollar hooplah,, none of that is needed for dipping brass in the correct temperature medium. Right?
And with dipping, I can anneal ALL cartridges, to any depth I choose, without all the rocket science and added costs.

Well if you turn your necks to a certain thickness, how do you calculate how much temp is needed to get it annealed correctly?

 

[JimSC]

The modulus of elasticity is also a measure of material's stiffness or resistance to elastic deformation. If the Young modulus of metal is greater, it's stiffer. Annealed brass and extra hard brass both have the same values for their modulus of elasticity. That is a fact, not an opinion

Extra-Hard (H06) C26800 Brass - modulus of elasticity 110 GPa

Annealed (OS050) C26800 Brass - modulus of elasticity 110 GPa


Comparing the physical properties of hardened brass and annealed brass which property of the brass does annealing change that is of benefit to shooters ?

Sorry guys I believe in scientific facts and studies, not lay subjective opinions and product marketing. If you want to spend a lot of money on something which has never been tested and shown to be of benefit and ignores science that is your decision.

 

[chop house]

I have just noticed that shooting virgin Lapua brass my groups are typically better than when I shoot my prepped brass.

there have been several threads re this being observed. one is quite recent. iirc the two main theories floated are case capacity increasing (moving you off the node) and neck tension decreasing (lowering start pressure). if it is sd/es issue perhaps more the latter?

edit: oh yeah, someone else determined their bolt face wasn't square, and the cases never came out as square as originally from the factory.

 

[dcali]

The modulus of elasticity is also a measure of material's stiffness or resistance to elastic deformation. If the Young modulus of metal is greater, it's stiffer. Annealed brass and extra hard brass both have the same values for their modulus of elasticity. That is a fact, not an opinion

Extra-Hard (H06) C26800 Brass - modulus of elasticity 110 GPa

Annealed (OS050) C26800 Brass - modulus of elasticity 110 GPa


Comparing the physical properties of hardened brass and annealed brass which property of the brass does annealing change that is of benefit to shooters ?

Sorry guys I believe in scientific facts and studies, not lay subjective opinions and product marketing. If you want to spend a lot of money on something which has never been tested and shown to be of benefit and ignores science that is your decision.

It changes the yield point- the point at which elastic deformation stops and the elastic modulus is no longer accurate. The amount of deformation at which that transition takes place is dramatically impacted by annealing, and yielding usually takes place when you seat a bullet.

 

[JimSC]

It changes the yield point- the point at which elastic deformation stops and the elastic modulus is no longer accurate. The amount of deformation at which that transition takes place is dramatically impacted by annealing, and yielding usually takes place when you seat a bullet.

by the time the neck stretches to the yield point the bullet has left the case. Pull a bullet and reinsert it, do that a dozen times Once again does anyone have a link to any scientifically controlled study to show that annealing affects anything as far as the point of impact or lowering SD's. You guys want to spend 4 figures on hearsay and internet forum posts then go for it, for me reloading is not a religion where faith is the only proof needed. I have tried it and satisfied myself it is not needed to get low SD's and ES's so I quit

We are just talking around each other now so this is my last post on the thread. At this point it is like arguing religion from faith vs science viewpoints. I have posted several links to articles and papers so believe them or believe marketing campaigns and internet forum wisdom. I wasted 400 bucks becasue I did not do my due diligence, just trying to educate others before they spend a lot of money on snake oil