New gun with new ammo and have zero headspace change after firing?

[Uncle Ed]

Chambers and dies vary in size, a skinny chamber and a fat die may not squeeze the case shoulder forward. But a fat chamber and a skinny die will squeeze the case shoulder forward.

And if the case shoulder isn't touched by the die then keep shooting the case and full length resizing it. Two things can happen, the die will eventually push the shoulder back the desired amount. Or the case will make the bolt hard to close because the shoulder is never touched by the die.

Below for some reason your die is not pushing the case shoulder back below the red dotted line. And most dies will squeeze the shoulder forward and push the shoulder back more than needed if the die contacts the shell holder.

You could measure a "fired" case at three points along the case body and measure at the same points after sizing and see how much the diameter is reduced.

 

[Ron Blain]

Well ruined the die isn't the word. The case is stuck in it and won't come out. Was using the imperial lube. This was just case of lowering the die way too much trying to get the shoulder to bump. It was not going to bump period. The case is smaller than the minimum.

My first disaster was with 30-06 also back in '72. Believe me you are not the first to have a stuck case and all of the frustration that goes along with it. You can invest in a stuck case removal tool, the RCBS version and other work fine. On my case the head ripped off and I was able to twist and mangle the brass till it came out. I was using Lee paste case lube and I promptly stuck another case. You can try removing it yourself using assorted tools or you can send the die to the die manufacturer and they will remove the stuck case. The merit here is they will also inspect the die and clean it up.

As to the case gauge you are using it is a comparator type affair. You measure a case before you size it and after you begin sizing setting up your die. You subtract your after number from your before number and that will tell you how much the case has changed distance from case head to shoulder datum point. The numbers you get are not the actual case dimension because as mentioned the HORNADY - LOCK-N-LOAD™ HEADSPACE GAUGE TOOL the accuracy of the bushings leaves a little to be desired. It does fine as to before and after measurements as far as giving you the difference but the numbers are not actual real world measurements.

Here is what I am getting at using a 308 Winchester as an example with the 0.400 bushing.

Using a known headspace gauge we can measure it.

The gauge is actually a 308 Winchester 1.630" Go gauge but note the reading.

The gauge is reading 1.624" or actually 0.006" lower than the truth. Now if I measure a 1.634" No/Go gauge the change is 0.004" which is the true difference between the two gauges.

I have noticed when measuring a 30-06 headspace gauge that a 2.049" Go gauge measures 2.045" or about 0.004" low. I have also noticed all of these things vary from box to box. The only way to know what your gauge is actually measuring, as was mentioned, would be to invest in a headspace gauge like those pictured. There is really no need for that as the gauge will do what you want it to do and work as a comparator.

My experience has been that factory ammunition generally comes in with a shoulder datum to case head dimension of 2.045" to 2.049" and using standard 30-06 dies setup according to manufacture's specifications the die will resize your brass to right around factory dimensions and SAAMI specifications. I would settle for that until you develop a good handle on resizing and measuring.

Additionally as was well covered if your fired brass will chamber in the rifle and chamber without a problem, easy bolt close on a bolt gun, there is no need to full length resize your brass. Neck sizing only should work just fine.

Ron

 

[Ron Blain]

Really good images there UncleEd. Thanks for sharing them.

Ron

 

[Uncle Ed]

If the OP had only started reloading with a Lee target loader below he would have asked why his neck sized cases wouldn't chamber and eject. It was at this point in 1973 I bought my Rockchucker press and RCBS full length die and bought a manual and actually read the front part of the manual.

 

[Homerange]

If the OP had only started reloading with a Lee target loader below he would have asked why his neck sized cases wouldn't chamber and eject. It was at this point in 1973 I bought my Rockchucker press and RCBS full length die and bought a manual and actually read the front part of the manual.

And yet the 308 one of those I have of about the same vintage never gave any issues bar the inside neck reamer took out too much brass for a standard neck diameter chamber.
In a rifle with a custom neck it would've been the ducks nuts.

I chased my tail around for a while before being given some old FL dies and swapped over to them and accuracy issues disappeared.

I probably should look at getting the neck of that die turned out to SAMMI spec.

 

[noobie]

You sure could however
should he ever use that Die again? Or just move on like the rest of us did.

I'm just moving on. Hornady's Custom Grade Die's are not relatively expensive and you get free bullets with a new purchase that make the die basically free.

 

[noobie]

Push the handle out with your thumb. Some are tighter than others so you may have to wiggle the firing pin assembly while you push harder. It’ll come.
View attachment 1088709
Once the handle is out, the firing pin assembly will slide out. You can put the handle back in to use the bolt to check brass and “bullet in the lands”. Without the pressure of the firing pin assembly, it may be loose and fall out. Don’t let it hit the concrete!
View attachment 1088710
View attachment 1088711

To put it back together, just reverse the process. When you need to rotate the assembly clockwise to get the cover back on, the Allen wrench gives you the leverage. Rotate clockwise until it stops, slide the cover back on, then rotate it counter clockwise until the cocking arm falls into the small locating indent.
View attachment 1088707
View attachment 1088708
You’re done! See? Easy peezy!

There is a good video on you tube from someone as well. I ran into it a few months ago. Thank you!

 

[JFrank]

I'm just moving on. Hornady's Custom Grade Die's are not relatively expensive and you get free bullets with a new purchase that make the die basically free.

Not all Dies are created equal despite what brand name or claims. It's important to understand before and after sizing measurements and find a Die that fits your application

I'm just moving on. Hornady's Custom Grade Die's are not relatively expensive and you get free bullets with a new purchase that make the die basically free.

what makes their Dies custom?
Are you sending three x Fired cases ? Will they send you a Die that reduces the body only .002 at the body /shoulder junction and .0015 at the .200 mark? Also lets you headspace.000-.005 bye way of threads?
Just curious

 

[a1712]

Not all Dies are created equal despite what brand name or claims. It's important to understand before and after sizing measurements and find a Die that fits your application

what makes their Dies custom?
Are you sending three x Fired cases ? Will they send you a Die that reduces the body only .002 at the body /shoulder junction and .0015 at the .200 mark? Also lets you headspace.000-.005 bye way of threads?
Just curious

As to Custom, I think it just sounds cool and makes ya think they're better somehow(note the sarcasm).Brian.

 

[JFrank]

As to Custom, I think it just sounds cool and makes ya think they're better somehow(note the sarcasm).Brian.

No sarcasm on my end"cause I'd like to know myself.
I have a Hornday seater that believe it or not produces extremely low runout.
Go figure

 

[Uncle Ed]

Warning, stuck cases and new dies. New dies have a dry film corrosion protection and must be cleaned per the dies instructions.

The last die I purchased the instructions said to use Hoppes bore cleaner to remove this dry film protection. Meaning the old ways of just wiping the oil type preservative from inside the die is long gone. And not reading the instructions and just spraying WD-40 inside the die and wiping it out with a paper towel will give you a stuck case.

 

[noobie]

Warning, stuck cases and new dies. New dies have a dry film corrosion protection and must be cleaned per the dies instructions.

The last die I purchased the instructions said to use Hoppes bore cleaner to remove this dry film protection. Meaning the old ways of just wiping the oil type preservative from inside the die is long gone. And not reading the instructions and just spraying WD-40 inside the die and wiping it out with a paper towel will give you a stuck case.

Thanks! I did clean with Hoppes bore cleaner.

 

[a1712]

No sarcasm on my end"cause I'd like to know myself.
I have a Hornday seater that believe it or not produces extremely low runout.
Go figure

My sarcasm. Like the words Tactical in any rifle related item, Lithium and Titanium in batteries. I have 5 or so sets of Hornady Custom FL Die sets and they all load ammo to true custom die tolerances. Brian.

 

[JFrank]

My sarcasm. Like the words Tactical in any rifle related item, Lithium and Titanium in batteries. I have 5 or so sets of Hornady Custom FL Die sets and they all load ammo to true custom die tolerances. Brian.

Your fortunate
Mine did not

 

[noobie]

Just got a new die in and brave enough to give it another go. Worked great now that I have it figured out. Don't go for .003 with a the new fired round that is already below headspace minimum and using a comparator to determine that. I also called Hornady. Their tech videos and most other videos show the person setting up the die with the arm of the press all the way down. That is wrong. The press has a built in cam and you need to set the die using the highest point of the ram. The is a pretty large gap difference between ram at heighest point and ram allowed to cam over. Don't use it with the arm fully dropped. I think I may have done too much reading and video watching. Read the entire manual from Hornady less each bullet spec page including the index. Just new words and concepts to learn.

 

[JFrank]

Just got a new die in and brave enough to give it another go. Worked great now that I have it figured out. Don't go for .003 with a the new fired round that is already below headspace minimum and using a comparator to determine that. I also called Hornady. Their tech videos and most other videos show the person setting up the die with the arm of the press all the way down. That is wrong. The press has a built in cam and you need to set the die using the highest point of the ram. The is a pretty large gap difference between ram at heighest point and ram allowed to cam over. Don't use it with the arm fully dropped. I think I may have done too much reading and video watching. Read the entire manual from Hornady less each bullet spec page including the index. Just new words and concepts to learn.

Glad your figuring it out.
Let me ask you a question, with your Die now set and the ram at full extension how many thousand gap is under your shell holder?
(Feeler gauge)

 

[noobie]

Glad your figuring it out.
Let me ask you a question, with your Die now set and the ram at full extension how many thousand gap is under your shell holder?
(Feeler gauge)

Well ram at full extension (highest point) is 0. I have it just touching the case per Hornady.

Arm of press let go and at full extension a feeler gauge of .009 fully inserts. .010 will partially go in but can't make a full pass through.

 

[JFrank]

Well ram at full extension (highest point) is 0. I have it just touching the case per Hornady.

Arm of press let go and at full extension a feeler gauge of .009 fully inserts. .010 will partially go in but can't make a full pass through.

So you have .009 under your shell holder. What does that tell you?

(Trust me , I'm not being a smart ass here)

 

[JFrank]

That a .007 feeler gauge gives .002 bump.
What'd I win??

Your too funny" thanks for the good laugh..
BTW call me later

 

[JFrank]

That a .007 feeler gauge gives .002 bump.
What'd I win??

We have a winner"