Competition tuning

[dougridgeore]

I have seen groups string vertically because of internal scope issues. Not saying that is your issue but I had a scope that would shoot basically two groups at 12 and 6 o’clock... changed out scope problem solved.

 

[dcali]

This seems like a good application for a ladder test.

 

[sdean]

I have seen this much vertical just from set up and gunhandling. There is a thread from Speedy around here on vertical you should research.

 

[Terry]

I was at this match. Vertical in targets was common Friday, Saturday, and Sunday. The one the OP is showing is one of the good ones.

 

[One Shot One Thrill]

I believe the vertical I saw at the match was caused more by the incorrect powder charge than the wind. The Temp and Humidity were more of an issue than the wind in my very humble opinion.

 

[Terry]

I believe the vertical I saw at the match was caused more by the incorrect powder charge than the wind. The Temp and Humidity were more of an issue than the wind in my very humble opinion.

Hope yours were the good ones!

 

[Jennb]

Just outta curiosity what does my load info have to do with anything? All i was asking if it was your group and you had to change one thing which would you choose to start adjusting? I truly appreciate all that responded and respect all replies! But really come on does it really need to get that complicated? ????

I would start with powder charge! I dont do ladders, I shoot over a chronographs for best ES/SD. Testing with a chronograph eliminates shooter error and wind conditions.

 

[Pahunter1975]

I would start with powder charge! I dont do ladders, I shoot over a chronographs for best ES/SD. Testing with a chronograph eliminates shooter error and wind conditions.

Thank you Jennb I hopefully this weekend I’ll get to do exactly what you are saying.

 

[dkhunt14]

I would start with powder charge! I dont do ladders, I shoot over a chronographs for best ES/SD. Testing with a chronograph eliminates shooter error and wind conditions.

This might work good enough for F-Class but usually not good enough for BR. Some of my best ES and smallest groups at 100 were my worst vertical at 1000. I am talking ES of 1 to 2 and 100 yard groups In the zeros and low ones. That particular load never shot under 13 and all vertical. In BR on good days, the gun must shoot 10 shots in 4 to 5 inches in heavygun to win. In Light gun it must shoot 5 shots in 3 inches or under. There are so many good guns now. The 10 shot record for heavy is 2.815 and many targets with 9 shots under that and threatening it everyday. When you get it right, it tends to shoot through conditions way better then other loads. You let the target at 1000 tell you what it wants. Matt

 

[ShootDots]

This might work good enough for F-Class but usually not good enough for BR. Some of my best ES and smallest groups at 100 were my worst vertical at 1000. I am talking ES of 1 to 2 and 100 yard groups In the zeros and low ones. That particular load never shot under 13 and all vertical. In BR on good days, the gun must shoot 10 shots in 4 to 5 inches in heavygun to win. In Light gun it must shoot 5 shots in 3 inches or under. There are so many good guns now. The 10 shot record for heavy is 2.815 and many targets with 9 shots under that and threatening it everyday. When you get it right, it tends to shoot through conditions way better then other loads. You let the target at 1000 tell you what it wants. Matt

Hey Matt! I know that many, if not most, BR competitors do load development at the specific range(s) they intend to compete at. The primary goal is to shoot the tiniest groups at that particular range. E.S.s and S.D.s are NOT the primary concern, it's what groups are consistently printed on paper. However, I believe what Jennifer @Jennb is making a case for is that in F-Class, rifles are made to shoot at various ranges with 1 load, hence the PRIMARY need for consistently low E.S.s and S.D.s.. The rifle has to shoot from 300 to 1000 with the same load, in the same rifle, and keep as many as possible in the 10 ring, with a hefty percentage of those in the X ring! This accomplishment is not easily done. However, it HAS been done. Just look at Norm Harrold's 200/ 22X count at 1000 yards! That means 22Xs in 5 inches ALL SHOT IN A ROW! I would also bet a considerable sum he uses that same rifle and load for 600 etc... To make a rifle shoot really well at ALL distances, probably means not shooting at absolute peak at other distances. It is just the nature of the game. Both are correct>>>just correct for each discipline..

 

[Stan Taylor]

The main problem with ladders is the majority of us shooting long range benchrest can't tune at a 1000 what is the shortest distance you can get by with.

 

[dkhunt14]

The main problem with ladders is the majority of us shooting long range benchrest can't tune at a 1000 what is the shortest distance you can get by with.

I have had a little success at 400. Vertical needs to show to find the nodes. I believe 300 might be the minimum. I believe the farther the better. Matt

 

[Alex Wheeler]

If you tune like Matt suggests that load will hold well inside x ring at 300 and 600. The idea that a load tuned at 1k for PC will shoot big at 600 is not true. Your still tuning for loads with pretty good ES. Now if you talking PC with old enfields with 100 fps ES military ammo thats a very different thing, which I have no interest or experience in. Nothing wrong with 100 yd cone of dispersion tuning either if that works for you.

 

[JFrank]

With such an impressive list of contributors to this thread I'm a bit intimidated to chime in.

I got my note pad though!

 

[Northridge]

With such an impressive list of contributors to this thread I'm a bit intimidated to chime in.

I got my note pad though!

this group is trending from bottom up, I would agree shooting to loose or with late shoulder pick up my groups will induce vertical but it is usually random vertical up and down as string develops but reducing time before shoulder picks up stock helps clean grouping up. this group is trending from bottom up as I noted so something else is going on. charge is defiantly a variable but likely not the only fix.

Shawn Williams

 

[Jennb]

This might work good enough for F-Class but usually not good enough for BR. Some of my best ES and smallest groups at 100 were my worst vertical at 1000. I am talking ES of 1 to 2 and 100 yard groups In the zeros and low ones. That particular load never shot under 13 and all vertical. In BR on good days, the gun must shoot 10 shots in 4 to 5 inches in heavygun to win. In Light gun it must shoot 5 shots in 3 inches or under. There are so many good guns now. The 10 shot record for heavy is 2.815 and many targets with 9 shots under that and threatening it everyday. When you get it right, it tends to shoot through conditions way better then other loads. You let the target at 1000 tell you what it wants. Matt

I did not say thats all I do! Thats where I start, then I tune at 300 yards with seating depth. This was the seating depth I chose out of the others at 300 yards with a slight crosswind, moa correct size target. 1 1/2” X ring. 5 shots in that hole. Pic with dime was second group at the same depth to verify

 

[Jennb]

This might work good enough for F-Class but usually not good enough for BR. Some of my best ES and smallest groups at 100 were my worst vertical at 1000. I am talking ES of 1 to 2 and 100 yard groups In the zeros and low ones. That particular load never shot under 13 and all vertical. In BR on good days, the gun must shoot 10 shots in 4 to 5 inches in heavygun to win. In Light gun it must shoot 5 shots in 3 inches or under. There are so many good guns now. The 10 shot record for heavy is 2.815 and many targets with 9 shots under that and threatening it everyday. When you get it right, it tends to shoot through conditions way better then other loads. You let the target at 1000 tell you what it wants. Matt

These were my velocities at the target in a 1000 yard competition. Scorekeeper wrote them down for me and this is with a .308 shooting 200 gr bullets. My methods obviously have some merit!

 

[Rope2horns]

If you tune like Matt suggests that load will hold well inside x ring at 300 and 600. The idea that a load tuned at 1k for PC will shoot big at 600 is not true. Your still tuning for loads with pretty good ES. Now if you talking PC with old enfields with 100 fps ES military ammo thats a very different thing, which I have no interest or experience in. Nothing wrong with 100 yd cone of dispersion tuning either if that works for you.

This might work good enough for F-Class but usually not good enough for BR. Some of my best ES and smallest groups at 100 were my worst vertical at 1000. I am talking ES of 1 to 2 and 100 yard groups In the zeros and low ones. That particular load never shot under 13 and all vertical. In BR on good days, the gun must shoot 10 shots in 4 to 5 inches in heavygun to win. In Light gun it must shoot 5 shots in 3 inches or under. There are so many good guns now. The 10 shot record for heavy is 2.815 and many targets with 9 shots under that and threatening it everyday. When you get it right, it tends to shoot through conditions way better then other loads. You let the target at 1000 tell you what it wants. Matt

Again I agree with both of these statements ^^^...for the sake of discussion only not bragging at all....I tune for PC at 1k..I don't own a chronograph...Two weeks after Nationals I set a pending national record (I think) at 600yrds 600-52x's with the same rifle and same ammo...there are different ways to skin a cat...this is what has worked for me....Some of what I know I learned from the Fclass crowd and some of what I learned came from right here on Accurate Shooter from posts from guys like Alex, Matt, Tom and a few others not mentioned....I'd read then go test for myself...if I liked what I saw I continued on with it, if not I quit..it's that simple. Do what works for you.

 

[JFrank]

Lots of variables involved But"
If I took this load to a thousand yard event, how bad would I get my butt kicked?

 

[Jennb]

Again I agree with both of these statements ^^^...for the sake of discussion only not bragging at all....I tune for PC at 1k..I don't own a chronograph...Two weeks after Nationals I set a pending national record (I think) at 600yrds 600-52x's with the same rifle and same ammo...there are different ways to skin a cat...this is what has worked for me....Some of what I know I learned from the Fclass crowd and some of what I learned came from right here on Accurate Shooter from posts from guys like Alex, Matt, Tom and a few others not mentioned....I'd read then go test for myself...if I liked what I saw I continued on with it, if not I quit..it's that simple. Do what works for you.

You are so right Norm. There are many ways to accomplish the same thing. Everyone should use what works for them! Working the way I do I can do most of my load development at home before I have to drive a ways to get to the range. An accuracy node is a accuracy node no matter the distance or how you find it!