MRP Tactical AR Regarding Awards in NRA State Championships

[GSS]

Hello All,
I'm helping write the Match Bulletin for our clubs 2019 Mid Range Prone (300/500/600 yards) State Championship. To date we have never had anyone at our club's other Mid Range Prone matches show up with a "still fairly new to NRA & provisional" (PRONE) TACTICAL RIFLE (AR).

BUT, a club nearby is getting a new group of shooters showing up at their matches shooting AR Tactical Rifles. This means there is a good chance some of them will attend our State Championship.

We have not finalized this yet or sent the App. for an NRA Registered Tournament in yet.

Currently we are planning to Name a State Champion in the F Class and the Sling categories.
All rifles that will be shooting on the F Class targets will be in one group.
All sling shooters that will be shooting on NRA standard targets will be in another Group.
The winner of each of those two classes will be considered the State Champions.

We are thinking of giving Rifle class awards to the highest scoring shooter in each of the rifle classes below IF and Only IF there are 5 or more shooters in each class.

F Class to include FTR
Match Rifle to include Palma
Service Rifle
Tactical AR

The Main Point of this thread is:
We are in a bit of a Quandary as to what to do if an AR Tactical Rifle scores the highest.

I'm hoping to hear Mostly from other Match Directors to see what they have done or plan on doing for this situation.

Service Rifle Shooters using a sling and 4.5x scope typically score in the high 190's with good X counts. There will be more than a few Service Rifle Shooters in this match that could be capable of winning the State Champion Award over all the other Sling Shooters in the match.

* I / We are all for growing the shooting sports by trying a new thing or two from time to time, within reason...

The Tactical AR with front and rear support and a 15x scope should all be easily cleaning the big targets so they basically have a HUGE advantage over both of the classes we will be awarding State Champion honors to.

If a State Resident shows up shooting a Tactical AR it could very likely happen that shooter would outscore all F Class and Sling Shooters.

That being said we were thinking of putting a line in the Match Bulletin that we will be sending to the NRA to get approval for an NRA Registered match stating:

AR Tactical Rifles can shoot in the match for individual awards but are considered Out of Competition for the State Champion Awards​

Hoping to hear from other Match Directors with insight on what you have or will be doing for this class of Rifle.

Thanks All,
George

Edited to Add:
I'm just a Service Rifle Shooter / Match Director / Range Governor.
I have ran a few Regional's and many XTC State Championships. Match Bulletins as much easier for XTC Matches due to simpler and less classes of rifles....

---------------
Below are snips from the latest version of the NRA rules that I can find online.

https://rulebooks.nra.org/documents/pdf/compete/RuleBooks/HPR/hpr-book.pdf

• 23. NRA MID RANGE (PRONE) TACTICAL RIFLE (AR)
The targets will be the same targets that are used for Service Rifle, Match Rifle and Palma Rifle Mid-Range Prone competition.

Shooters may use tactical front rests such as Harris-type bipods and limited rear rests of the type one might find used in military or police tactical situations.

Sights- Telescopic sights, either fixed or variable, not to exceed 15x magnification.

 

[JCUtah]

The simple response is the AR prone isn't offical. It's still provisional. So the AR can't win the offical NRA championship.

That said, you're on the right track. Just treat the AR group separate. They have a completely different set up.

Last year at our state championship I did what I'm suggesting to you. We had f open, ftr, sling and AR. AR didn't get an NRA medal, but we had a cool plaque made up.

What I did learn last year is that there is a strong following that likes to shoot AR and something else. This year I decided to have an officially unofficial state championship for AR only. Nearly everyone at our club has an AR, so now they don't have to choose which division to compete in. And then we will have the offical state f class and sling championship separately.

Good luck. Have fun.

 

[kzin]

I'm an assistant MD for unregistered matches so maybe I count?

I agree with the above that you cant give an official NRA championship to AR Tactical because it's provisional.

Besides that you can't give AR-Tac a sling award because it's too much mechanical advantage over sling and you can't give AR-Tac an award for f-class because AR-Tac is shot on an easier target than f-class.

As suggested above you could give a third less official 'State Championship' entirely for AR-Tac. But that wouldn't be much different than just winning the AR-Tac class at the state championships which you already have.


Another option -

NRA positioned the Ar-Tac class as part of prone(sling) probably to allow beginners higher scores on the sling target. Very few shooters agree that it belongs there.

Most people think AR-Tac should be the third division of f-class(or a third major division). You could hold it as F-Tactical on f-class targets. Give an organizers rifle class award for it and if anybody in the division posts the highest score in f-class then they are the Official State F-class Champ. Won't happen but at least they're not shooting with no possibility of being official state champ in something.

To satisfy the 'legalities' you'd probably have to consider the F-Tactical entrants f-class shooters who qualify for a special class award by also satisfying the provisional AR-Tac rules and report their scores as f-class scores.

 

[m1jeff]

In Florida, we give out 8 nice laser engraved plaques with names and scores on them.
XTC SR
XTC MR
F/TR
F/Open
Any Rifle Metallic
Any Rifle Optic
Mid Range SR
Mid Range Tactical
So beginning in 2018, we gave a plaque to the top AR Tactical shooter. We are always trying to grow participation, and tactical is growing in our area.

The plaques come from the hosting club/state association, not from the NRA. Obviously the NRA isn’t recognizing tactical yet.

 

[GSS]

Thanks for the input to date.

(Kzin, I guess assistant Match directors count too... LOL Would be good if they stick to my original questions tho and not go into what the people that are shooting this class would like to see for awards. )

Where this is provisional and still only a small percentage of people are shooting it in my area I / we don't want to go hog wild in the match bulletin or awards or do anything "special" for it. We just want to be prepared in the match bulletin if many or any people show up in this "still provisional" class.

I already stated in the opening post
We are thinking of giving Rifle class awards to the highest scoring shooter in each of the rifle classes below IF and Only IF there are 5 or more shooters in each class.

F Class to include FTR
Match Rifle to include Palma
Service Rifle
Tactical AR

Ray Charles could see in the thread http://forum.accurateshooter.com/threads/details-on-ar-tactical-in-nra-high-power-midrange.3930771/ on that class of rifle topic / thread how convoluted the discussion get right off the bat.
That would be the thread to continue those discussions.

In this thread, as I stated
I'm hoping to hear Mostly from other Match Directors to see what they have done or plan on doing for this situation.

Situation I described =
a person showing up shooting one of these rifles thinking they are the state Champion if they have the best score of the sling or F class shooters. I / we should be well covered if we state the AR Tactical class is out of competition for State Champion.


Would love more input from other Match Directors as well.

 

[GSS]

The simple response is the AR prone isn't offical. It's still provisional. So the AR can't win the offical NRA championship.

That said, you're on the right track. Just treat the AR group separate. They have a completely different set up.

Last year at our state championship I did what I'm suggesting to you. We had f open, ftr, sling and AR. AR didn't get an NRA medal, but we had a cool plaque made up.

What I did learn last year is that there is a strong following that likes to shoot AR and something else. This year I decided to have an officially unofficial state championship for AR only. Nearly everyone at our club has an AR, so now they don't have to choose which division to compete in. And then we will have the offical state f class and sling championship separately.

Good luck. Have fun.

Thank You Excellent On Point feedback so far to the Question I asked in this thread.

I hoped the thread would stay on topic and More Match Directors Respond as requested and it doesn't go down a rathole.

I laid out my situation and question as clear as I could to avoid that.

 

[Jdne5b]

F-Open and F-T/R shouldnt be combined unless there are only a couple entrants. Kind of like SR and MR being separate.

 

[GSS]

F-Open and F-T/R shouldnt be combined unless there are only a couple entrants. Kind of like SR and MR being separate.

I "somewhat" agree but Match Directors can only give away so many awards and have a match still generate a little income to help pay the clubs large tax bills and range maintenance fees while keeping the match fee at a reasonable amount.

Thinking One match where you would crown separate Prone State Champions for;
F Open
FTR
Palma
Match
Service
( NRA AR Tactical is still provisional so I did not include that category )

A decent engraved Plaque for a State Champion runs around $80 each at the local Trophy shop I use.
The NRA gets $5.50 per shooter for a Registered Match
Class awards of say $20 per person if > 5 shooters in the class
You would have to charge a substantial Match Fee just to not loose money.

I'd love to see or get copies of Match Bulletins from other Match Directors Matches if they have done this.

My email is GSmith223 at comcast dot net if you would rather not post your match bulletins publicly.

George

 

[GSS]

F-Open and F-T/R shouldnt be combined unless there are only a couple entrants. Kind of like SR and MR being separate.

Do you have a State Championship Match Bulletin you could send me that broke out those 4 classes seperately?

I'm interested to what ( You ? or They ? ) charged for an entrance fee and what the awards were.

Thanks,
George

 

[kzin]

https://www.readerange.org/index.ph...85-2018-pa-state-championship-programs-posted

Pa. States bulletins from 2018

 

[Jdne5b]

I've only been to 1 state match that didnt separate F-Open and FTR. That was Iowa a few years ago.

Lousiana, Texas, Missouri, Nebraska, Tn, all run separate awards for Fopen and FTR. Past Missouri bulletins are posted on this forum.

$60 entry fee in Missouri and usually has overall first through 3rd place trophies for Open/TR plus individual match and class award medals, and category awards for the old guys, kids, and women. No cash awards at Missouri.

 

[m1jeff]

Here’s Florida’s. It should be noted that I’ve been barred from writing any further match programs by the stat officer. That was a great moment! I’m off the hook!

Specifically I guess I overly complicated the awards schedule. I’m sure I copy and pasted that from somewhere else...

http://pmrpcrifle.com/hosted-tournaments-regionals-and-state-championships/

 

[flintcreek6412]

Here is Indiana but we don't do AR tactical as an official award but we have made plaques for youth that win it in their youth category shooting AR Tactical.

http://cihprs.wildapricot.org/resources/Documents/Match Bulletins/MidRange State2018.pdf

 

[GSS]

Here is Indiana but we don't do AR tactical as an official award but we have made plaques for youth that win it in their youth category shooting AR Tactical.

http://cihprs.wildapricot.org/resources/Documents/Match Bulletins/MidRange State2018.pdf

Nice Match Bulletin, Thank You.

Was the $1 a typo in this section?

CIHPRS Cash Awards: Individual cash awards will be paid out for each match winner using the following format. Match Winner: $1 (Paid to winner in sling and F-Class)

 

[Medic505]

If a State Resident shows up shooting a Tactical AR it could very likely happen that shooter would outscore all F Class and Sling Shooters

So what happens if three out of state shooters are first, second and third? Give the State Championship to the 4th place guy?

 

[m1jeff]

If one writes in the match program that the State Champion has to be a resident of the host state, then yes. One may also see it written that a resident competitor must also be a member of the sponsoring association.

I’ve had both situations before.

 

[GSS]

So what happens if three out of state shooters are first, second and third? Give the State Championship to the 4th place guy?

I'm not sure what Match Bulletin you are referring to but it all depends what the match bulletin says.

That's one reason for the discussion, to see what other clubs do in their match bulletins.

It can get convoluted in PRONE State Championships because of so many classes.
(XTC only 2 classes & 2 State Champions = Much Easier Match Bulletin)

You can only reasonably charge so much for a match which limits you to what you can give away for awards and still turn some money back in to the host club to go towards high land tax costs and range maintenance expenses.

Say $75 plaque for a State Champion for; F Class, FTR, AR Tactical, Palma, Match and Service Rifle.
That would be $450 expenses just for Plaques.

Then say you give $40 for the next highest scoring shooter in each of those classes. That's another $240 (Total $690)

Say there's 30 people that shot the match and it is NRA Registered. NRA gets $5.50 per shooter. = $165

You now have $855 in expenses for the match not counting range supplies that will be used in the match.

Say you charged each shooter $30 for match fee, That's $900 take in total = $45 profit

Not very sustainable for the range.

Would love to see more Prone State Championship Match Bulletins

G-

 

[Jdne5b]

$30 is cheap for a state level match fee. Most club matches are $20-25.

 

[Medic505]

I think you missed the gist of my question. Like Jeremy said, $30 is very cheap for a state championship match. The other way to guarantee more revenue is to up participation. IMO the FASTEST way to kill participation is the limit the award of "State Champion" to residents only. I have shot in State Championship matches that they had to go four or five deep to name the winner while the guy that wins the match doesn't get squat. I haven't and I won't go back. If you want to award a High Resident, that's all well and good but, the State Champion is still the shooter that placed first in the match. To do it any other way is pure grade A Chicken Excrement.

 

[GSS]

I think you missed the gist of my question. Like Jeremy said, $30 is very cheap for a state championship match. The other way to guarantee more revenue is to up participation. IMO the FASTEST way to kill participation is the limit the award of "State Champion" to residents only. I have shot in State Championship matches that they had to go four or five deep to name the winner while the guy that wins the match doesn't get squat. I haven't and I won't go back. If you want to award a High Resident, that's all well and good but, the State Champion is still the shooter that placed first in the match. To do it any other way is pure grade A Chicken Excrement.

That would be great discussion here as well.

In the XTC State Champs I have ran in the past I awarded State Champions Plaques to Match and Service Rifle class Winner (if 5 or more in each class) But they had to be State Residents. I did award the same $75 Plaque to the overall match winner if he or she was not a State Resident. As I agree the overall match winner should be recognized.

In this discussion I think people that are just shooters ( not intended demeaning in any way ) need to put themselves in Match Directors positions. As shooters only,,, it's easy to feel you should pay a reasonable match fee and the awards should be many and great with every class of rifle having great awards.

Us match directors that have to answer to Club Board of Directors, Trustees or whatever the case if we want to be allowed to keep running matches need to keep all these things in mind while we try to please everyone.

Upping Match Fees typically LOWERS Attendance:
It discourages new shooters because they have little to no chance to win anything and their $$$ will most certainly go the the long time experienced shooters.

Would still love to see more Prone State Championship match bulletins from other Match Directors.
Feel free to email to me at GSmith223 at comcast dot net if you would rather not share publicly here.

Huge Thanks to all for the response and match bulletins to date.