Scope Checker Usage Caution

[dmoran]

...... When you get around to actually testing scopes and scope rings rather than just assuming things, you'll see why I say what I'm saying.

I guarantee if I put a rod matching the scope tube diameter in any one of your single scope rings, i could very easily twist either ring out of alignment with minimal force.

Your the one assuming..... assuming you know what I have and haven't done.

And I guarantee you, if I put a rod in a 1-piece I to could easily twist either ring out of alignment as well. So what......


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@tom .... another classic example.... lol

 

[Fred Bohl]

A few things I noticed while doing quite a few scope checks. A lot the darn things shift on the first (sometimes second) shot after mounting. One day I had switched scopes to be tested, got them to co witness. About that time the sun popped out causing some mirage, so I went and farted around with some other stuff until the clouds came back over. When I sat down, they were no longer looking at the same point, it was about .3+ moa off. I now mount, fire a few, let sit for a while so everything has the temperature equalized, then adjust to co witness and proceed. Just some of my experiences that can throw a monkey wrench into things.

Tom

Tom,

Thanks for the advise on scope checker use. I've been reading your posts on testing and results so be assured that the results reported were simplifications base on a complex test protocol that included similar considerations to those you mentioned.

Fred

 

[Fred Bohl]

Am I reading something wrong? Two scopes seemed to shift less than 1/10MOA (thinner than any reticle I have ever seen) and they are deemed to be bad? What have I missed that has me thinking this is no big deal?

Chris,

I should have noted that the three of us in our little optics test group are basically short range Benchrest shooters and have been for the last 50 to 60 years. To us a 1/10MOA internal looseness in POA will mess up a group and/or aggregate bad enough to knock the shooter way down the score list. Our starting requirement for any competition scope is NO POA shift!

Fred

 

[Evlshnngns]

This is the info I needed from the tester thread. Thanks guys.

 

[Ledd Slinger]

Your the one assuming..... assuming you know what I have and haven't done.

And I guarantee you, if I put a rod in a 1-piece I to could easily twist either ring out of alignment as well. So what......


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@tom .... another classic example.... lol

The amount of force required to misalign a ring on a one piece mount is far greater than what is needed to misalign a single standalone ring.

I actually test every mount for strength and alignment before a scope is ever placed in it. Single rings or one piece. They are tested for alignment and corrected with lapping and ring bedding to scope body if required. Then moderate forces (twisting/bending and blows with a mallet on the alignment rod) are applied from various angles and they are tested again to ensure the rings return to perfect alignment. Good one piece 7075 aluminum mounts are immensely superior to single rings in every test, every time. It's not even close. And good quality 6 screw rings are far superior to 4 or 2 screw mounts.

I'd be willing to bet a couple good solid one piece mounts would cure a lot of the first or second shot POA shifts Tom experiences during his testing.

Think of it like this...A dual single ring mounting system is like a screwed and/or pinned rail on a receiver. Two parts: receiver and rail. A one piece scope mount is like and 'integral' scope rail machined into the receiver. It's all one piece. Which do you think will be more solid and reliable?

This is a video I made explaining a little bit with how I evaluate and test scope mounts. I do a lot more with my testing than what the video shows, but my testing has proved again and again that one piece scope mounts are far superior to single rings.

 

[dmoran]

@Ledd Slinger

Oh my god.... get over yourself already !.!.!
Once again, you have no knowledge what so ever of what I may all have experience with, so quit implying like you do.
I don't know you, and you certainly do not know me.
Could careless what you know or what you think you all know.

 

[R.Morehouse]

Just a note..... braked magnums are much harder on scopes than un-braked.

Brakes discombobulate a lot of scopes.

In that case a through recombobulation may be in order,,,,,

 

[natdscott]

Makes me wonder if any scope can withstand ongoing hits from a large magnum?

The old Weavers can.

 

[LA50SHOOTER]

Never seen a Uni-mount set-up on a competition 50 bmg rifle, ever - And I'm not seeing 1 piece set-up on other ELR Rifles.
Not 1 single one used at E2K by any shooter. - One guy had a scope base problem because he didn't check his gear before shooting.

Not to brew a Pissin Match but a few folks know what works for mounting scopes on the Big-Un's

 

[Ledd Slinger]

Part 2 of One piece scope mount vs. 2 piece scope rings. The dial indicator doesnt lie. No problem if folks want to keep using single scope rings. Im not saying they dont work. I'm just showing my results from testing. Use the information however you wish.

 

[Ledd Slinger]

Never seen a Uni-mount set-up on a competition 50 bmg rifle, ever - And I'm not seeing 1 piece set-up on other ELR Rifles.
Not 1 single one used at E2K by any shooter. - One guy had a scope base problem because he didn't check his gear before shooting.

Not to brew a Pissin Match but a few folks know what works for mounting scopes on the Big-Un's

That's fine. People can use whatever they want. I just prefer to test my own equipment and make decisions based on my results. My results have always shown me that one piece mounts are more rigid and provide a better hold on an optic. But dont believe me, I'm nobody. My advice would be to simply go out and test your own gear and make a decision for yourself

 

[KenOath]

Part 2 of One piece scope mount vs. 2 piece scope rings. The dial indicator doesnt lie. No problem if folks want to keep using single scope rings. Im not saying they dont work. I'm just showing my results from testing. Use the information however you wish.

Not questioning anyone’s credentials here or there findings from testing I respect all angles here, a question just for my own piece of mind..If the two piece mounts were lapped and matched and a scope fitted to each set of rings that you have there and the same test applied would there be as much difference between the two due to more rigidity coming from the scope(one piece bridge) rather than a two piece scope alignment tool?
I get the test you posted but in my mind extra strength will be incorporated into the two piece ring system once the correct bridge (scope) is applied...

 

[Ledd Slinger]

Not questioning anyone’s credentials here or there findings from testing I respect all angles here, a question just for my own piece of mind..If the two piece mounts were lapped and matched and a scope fitted to each set of rings that you have there and the same test applied would there be as much difference between the two due to more rigidity coming from the scope(one piece bridge) rather than a two piece scope alignment tool?
I get the test you posted but in my mind extra strength will be incorporated into the two piece ring system once the correct bridge (scope) is applied...

Yes, 2 piece scope rings 'can' be made more rigid with some elbow grease and bedding compound. I have one piece scope lapping bars and perform that test as well. The mounts most definitely become stronger, but there is still more of a difference with single rings.

In the first video I mention bedding the base of the rings to the rail. This helps form a good bond of the ring base to the rail which also helps a lot with resisting any outside forces that may try to misalign the rings.

As mentioned before, the mounts become much more rigid as a whole with a scope tube bonding them together. The difference is that the scope tube is being used more to make the separate rings perform as a single solid mount. Where as with a one piece, the mount itself is the pillar of strength and does not require the scope tube to keep it's rings rigid, straight, and true.

Both the one piece and the scope rings in both videos were straight out of the box, not lapped, bedded or modified in any way to keep things somewhat fair. The one piece requires virtually no work for additional alignment or strength, tho I still like to bed the scope tube in the one piece rings with JB Weld for maximum resistance against slippage under recoil.

Bedding the rings to the scope body is a 'must' in my opinion for perfect alignment and maximum strength when using 2 scope rings. Bedding of course also eliminates ring marks on the tube.

A one piece mount can also be moved to different positions on a rail with no adverse effects to strength or alignment. With 2 piece rings, once you get them set, bedded and aligned, they have to remain where they are on the rail. If moved to a different position on the rail, there is no guarantee alignment or rigidity will remain the same. Will need to check them for sure.

I plan on doing another video on scope ring bedding at some point.

 

[dmoran]

@Ledd Slinger
At one time here, didn't you go by "BigDMT" or something similar for a username?

 

[rardoin]

Part 2 of One piece scope mount vs. 2 piece scope rings. The dial indicator doesnt lie. No problem if folks want to keep using single scope rings. Im not saying they dont work. I'm just showing my results from testing. Use the information however you wish.

Just think how those records will fall when all the accomplished shooters start doing it right! Just because you show deflection in your set-up does not mean it translates into anything meaningful on target. A variable controlled test in a tunnel with a rail gun using billet solid vs separate ring mounts would be more meaningful.

 

[Ledd Slinger]

I did a Part 3 and 4 on testing the single rings and one piece mount with a steel lapping bar bonding them together if anyone is interested.

https://m.youtube.com/channel/UC8Gab1_PmHWchW7JRVeS3CA

I also did a new video talking about clamping surface area.

 

[Ledd Slinger]

Just think how those records will fall when all the accomplished shooters start doing it right! Just because you show deflection in your set-up does not mean it translates into anything meaningful on target. A variable controlled test in a tunnel with a rail gun using billet solid vs separate ring mounts would be more meaningful.

Then do it!!!

By all means take it a step further. Take it to the moon if you want. Pushing the envelope while questioning and challenging methods and designs is what helps to evolve shooting and make rifles more accurate. I might be wasting my time and everyone else's for that matter, but at least I'm testing and trying new things. Food for thought anyhow. Maybe something will come of it, maybe not. Gotta keep stirring the pot or the shooting sports go stale.

 

[rardoin]

Then do it!!!

By all means take it a step further. Take it to the moon if you want. Pushing the envelope while questioning and challenging methods and designs is what helps to evolve shooting and make rifles more accurate. I might be wasting my time and everyone else's for that matter, but at least I'm testing and trying new things. Food for thought anyhow. Maybe something will come of it, maybe not. Gotta keep stirring the pot or the shooting sports go stale.

Nothing wrong with testing new ideas. What I find objectionable is making definitive statements concerning the appropriateness of using two separate rings vs a single piece mount based on a 'bench study'. As a research scientist in a former life I know what works in a lab on non-human subjects is a far cry from real world application. I don't expect BR and F-class records to be improved by use of single piece scope mounts....perhaps I need to hang with Ned Ludd more. Prove me wrong and I will happily change my optics mounts and give you credit.

 

[savagedasher]

I don’t know why someone would not make a mount with a laser if is a good one and mounted secure see like a answer

 

[KenOath]

Yes, 2 piece scope rings 'can' be made more rigid with some elbow grease and bedding compound. I have one piece scope lapping bars and perform that test as well. The mounts most definitely become stronger, but there is still more of a difference with single rings.

In the first video I mention bedding the base of the rings to the rail. This helps form a good bond of the ring base to the rail which also helps a lot with resisting any outside forces that may try to misalign the rings.

As mentioned before, the mounts become much more rigid as a whole with a scope tube bonding them together. The difference is that the scope tube is being used more to make the separate rings perform as a single solid mount. Where as with a one piece, the mount itself is the pillar of strength and does not require the scope tube to keep it's rings rigid, straight, and true.

Both the one piece and the scope rings in both videos were straight out of the box, not lapped, bedded or modified in any way to keep things somewhat fair. The one piece requires virtually no work for additional alignment or strength, tho I still like to bed the scope tube in the one piece rings with JB Weld for maximum resistance against slippage under recoil.

Bedding the rings to the scope body is a 'must' in my opinion for perfect alignment and maximum strength when using 2 scope rings. Bedding of course also eliminates ring marks on the tube.

A one piece mount can also be moved to different positions on a rail with no adverse effects to strength or alignment. With 2 piece rings, once you get them set, bedded and aligned, they have to remain where they are on the rail. If moved to a different position on the rail, there is no guarantee alignment or rigidity will remain the same. Will need to check them for sure.

I plan on doing another video on scope ring bedding at some point.

Thanks for your input here and feedback, you’ve given me something to look at and consider for myself, I may in the future get a one piece mount and compare for myself...who knows maybe I will see an improvement, certainly can’t hurt anything accept the bank account!