6.5x47 lapua powders
- Thread starter Regnar
- Start date
Varget, RL-15, VV N540 and N150 are excellent for 123 / 130 class pills and can successfully be used with heavier bullets. For the 136-142 class bullets, H4350, RL-16 would sit at the TOP of my list.. Additionally, those powders for the heavies can be used for lighter pills too. However, in each case I believe the faster powders work best in the lighter bullets and the slower powders do work best with the heavier projectiles. The key word is "best" generally!
Thanks. I use 130 vlds now. I am switching to the hybrids.
I have a load with varget. i am looking to work up another with a different powder in case varget is hard to come by again.
Of the 3,which would you choose and why? im in NH and shoot year round. we can hit 100 plus in the summer and below zero in the winter.
26" bartlein 1:8.5 progressive twist.
I was speaking with Jason Bruno (Bruno's Shooter Supply) who had a long conversation with some BIG REP guy from Viht. During the first quarter of next year (by April) the "New and Improved" Viht powders will arrive in the USA. If you go on their web-site you will find that they are now 1.) Clean burning (always have been); 2.) Now contains the Copper Eraser additive; 3.) VERY temp stable at all temps; 4.) lot-to-lot consistency is maintained! To answer your question, once they arrive, for the 130s' I would use either N540 or N550. If you choose not to go that route, although I would recommend that route, I would try Varget or H4350>>>>mainly due to their being more temp stable than the others currently are..
Are you shooting it now? if so can you go e me an idea where your at for a load and what your getying gor accuracy and speed?
The Viht powders are not going to be out to the public til the FIRST quarter of next year.. So no Sir I am not. I have a "less-than-stellar" 6.5 x 47 barrel at this time. I am using 39.4grs of RL-16 with a 140 Berger Hybrid for 2835 out of a 30" barrel. That should easily be accomplished with about 40 grs of H4350>>>but it tops out before pressure signs at 2785!! The accuracy is also not up to par. It is shooting about 1' to 1.25" at 300 meters. A really good barrel will net you 5/8th to 7/8ths at that distance pretty consistently>>>but I can't get it. My NEXT 6.5 x 47 barrel will be a Krieger 4 groove conventional rifling with a 1-8.5 twist barrel. I will have it for shooting either 123s or 130s... With the new Viht powders that will be out by then, I suspect I will get "about" 3000f.p.s. with the 123s and north of 2950 with the 130s. On my second '47 barrel (several years ago) (it was 28") I was shooting the Berger 130VLD with 40.1grs of Viht N550. Accuracy was superb, velocity was 2970 BUT it destroyed my throat in 1700 rounds!! AND the "older" (as in right now) Viht powders, are also somewhat temp sensitive. However, the new ones, once they arrive, will have that problem fixed!
My experience with my own and others' 6.5X47s is that most rifles / barrels seem to prefer H. VarGet and Re16 class powders with 123gn and heavier bullets. Some though, including my own, wouldn't perform with powders in this burning rate bracket. When I say, 'wouldn't perform', I mean really wouldn't as in struggle to attain half-MOA 3-shot groups at 100, and shoot lots of near one-MOAs.
If you find this, try something from the next slower burning group - Viht N150 / 550, the 4350s, IMR-4451, and for Europeans, Reload Swiss RS62 (maybe Norma URP too, but never tried that one as Norma propellants have only recently reappeared in the UK after the loss of most Hodgdon and IMR grades). When I ran a 6.5X47L as my main F-Class rifle some years back I ended up with the Lapua 123 Scenar and N150 at a shade below 3,000 fps from 30-inches and stunning precision. The better 123s are surprisingly competent out to 1,000 and in the more easily read conditions, I occasionally embarrassed the users of more potent 'proper' long-Range F calibres.
If you find this, try something from the next slower burning group - Viht N150 / 550, the 4350s, IMR-4451, and for Europeans, Reload Swiss RS62 (maybe Norma URP too, but never tried that one as Norma propellants have only recently reappeared in the UK after the loss of most Hodgdon and IMR grades). When I ran a 6.5X47L as my main F-Class rifle some years back I ended up with the Lapua 123 Scenar and N150 at a shade below 3,000 fps from 30-inches and stunning precision. The better 123s are surprisingly competent out to 1,000 and in the more easily read conditions, I occasionally embarrassed the users of more potent 'proper' long-Range F calibres.
123 Scenar ........................ 0.357" shank ............ 0.94 Rt/R (near full tangent) .......... 0.950 i7
123 Sierra (new pointed) .... 0.340" shank ............ 0.72 Rt/R ..................................... 0.928 i7
The old 123 AMax did nothing good for me, but that may be a bullet to barrel compatibility issue, or maybe then again because it was a full-blown VLD form with an Rt/R value of 0.43.
The 123 ELD-M which only appeared long after my 6.5X47L barrel went into the scrap metal pile should be much easier to tune with an Rt/R of 0.85 which I usually find produces jump-tolerant characteristics. It has a longer shank than the Scenar or new SMK though at 0.432" and a higher drag factor of 0.974.
The older pre-pointed 123 SMK shot well for me too as a nearly tangent ogive design (Rt/R = 0.85) but had an extra 60 thou' bearing surface length compared to its successor constraining MVs a bit, and shorter blunter nose for slightly higher drag / lower BC, its i7 0.970, BC 0.260 (G7 BCs for the Scenar 0.265; new SMK 0.272). So, in a Scenar v older SMK choice, the higher BC Scenar was chosen for long-range. At that time, the Scenar was very easily obtained in the UK and it and its ancient but still efficient 139gn stablemate were the best value 6.5s on the UK market especially if bought as a 1,000 ct box. (Even today, they are 45% cheaper than 6.5mm Bergers and over 20% cheaper per bullet than SMKs bought in 500 ct boxes here despite a recent large depreciation of the pound sterling against the euro.)
130s have come a long way too since my 6.5X47L went south. I couldn't get the 130gn Berger VLD to shoot for me in three different 6.5mm rifles and the similar 130gn Norma VLD only shot well in a Bartlein barreled 6.5X55, but a friend used them (Normas) with great results in the 47L in mid-range F-Class. I have high hopes for the Berger 130gn Tactical OTM AR-Hybrid which somehow combines a user-friendly 'hybrid' shape with good i7/BC values. That is about to tried in a 260 Rem. The 130 Nosler RDF is a very recent arrival here and there is little experience in the UK with this design as a result, but adds to the choice. I have very high hopes for the new 130gn Sierra TMK which from Litz's dimensions appears to be a scaled down version of the 160gn 7mm TMK that has been a great performer for me in a 7mm-08 F-Class rifle. That's also on the 'to do' list for 2019 260 Rem load development.
(All dimensions and i7/G7 BC values from Bryan Litz's Ballistic Performance of Rifle Bullets third edition. As is so often the case, this book is a treasure trove of useful stuff including much more than just BC values. I wonder how many people realise that with a few exceptions, Sierra's recent pointed tip bullet upgrades include much more than a simple 'tipping' exercise involving often significant basic design changes that will likely see COALs need adjustment and potentially need load development to be done again?)
123 Sierra (new pointed) .... 0.340" shank ............ 0.72 Rt/R ..................................... 0.928 i7
The old 123 AMax did nothing good for me, but that may be a bullet to barrel compatibility issue, or maybe then again because it was a full-blown VLD form with an Rt/R value of 0.43.
The 123 ELD-M which only appeared long after my 6.5X47L barrel went into the scrap metal pile should be much easier to tune with an Rt/R of 0.85 which I usually find produces jump-tolerant characteristics. It has a longer shank than the Scenar or new SMK though at 0.432" and a higher drag factor of 0.974.
The older pre-pointed 123 SMK shot well for me too as a nearly tangent ogive design (Rt/R = 0.85) but had an extra 60 thou' bearing surface length compared to its successor constraining MVs a bit, and shorter blunter nose for slightly higher drag / lower BC, its i7 0.970, BC 0.260 (G7 BCs for the Scenar 0.265; new SMK 0.272). So, in a Scenar v older SMK choice, the higher BC Scenar was chosen for long-range. At that time, the Scenar was very easily obtained in the UK and it and its ancient but still efficient 139gn stablemate were the best value 6.5s on the UK market especially if bought as a 1,000 ct box. (Even today, they are 45% cheaper than 6.5mm Bergers and over 20% cheaper per bullet than SMKs bought in 500 ct boxes here despite a recent large depreciation of the pound sterling against the euro.)
130s have come a long way too since my 6.5X47L went south. I couldn't get the 130gn Berger VLD to shoot for me in three different 6.5mm rifles and the similar 130gn Norma VLD only shot well in a Bartlein barreled 6.5X55, but a friend used them (Normas) with great results in the 47L in mid-range F-Class. I have high hopes for the Berger 130gn Tactical OTM AR-Hybrid which somehow combines a user-friendly 'hybrid' shape with good i7/BC values. That is about to tried in a 260 Rem. The 130 Nosler RDF is a very recent arrival here and there is little experience in the UK with this design as a result, but adds to the choice. I have very high hopes for the new 130gn Sierra TMK which from Litz's dimensions appears to be a scaled down version of the 160gn 7mm TMK that has been a great performer for me in a 7mm-08 F-Class rifle. That's also on the 'to do' list for 2019 260 Rem load development.
(All dimensions and i7/G7 BC values from Bryan Litz's Ballistic Performance of Rifle Bullets third edition. As is so often the case, this book is a treasure trove of useful stuff including much more than just BC values. I wonder how many people realise that with a few exceptions, Sierra's recent pointed tip bullet upgrades include much more than a simple 'tipping' exercise involving often significant basic design changes that will likely see COALs need adjustment and potentially need load development to be done again?)
Are you saying H-4350 is hitting pressure at 2785 fps in a 30" tube ?
Yes Sir I am... When I first got the barrel, I put some rounds down it with 130 VLDs with up to 38.2grs of RL-15. I only got to 2850! So I started with the 140 Hybrids and RL-16. It got better velocity, albeit somewhat slower than should have been. I took it to 600 and a 1000 yard matches to get the barrel broke in and the "speed-up" settled in. I went back and started with H4350. I started at 39.0grs and worked up to 40.5grs. I have had several 6.5 x 47s and know them well. I know that in a "normal" barrel, with up to 40.5grs. it SHOULD have topped 2850.. But prior to even getting to 40.0grs (if memory serves me) it was 39.7grs where I had started to experience very stiff bolt lifts. By the time I got to 40.5 I was getting bolt "clicks">>> and accuracy was in the toilet. I went back to RL-16 and settled on a a load of 39.4grs at 2835. The barrel is barely in the "competitive" range. It is a far cry from what a 6.5 x 47 is capable of in both velocity and accuracy. It's simply "one of those barrel anomalies"!
It has a .160 freebore... It has to be a slow barrel. But it is REAL slow! Additionally, it shoots an inch to one and three eights at 300 meters. That, in my opinion, it terrible for what a 6.5 x 47 is capable of.
I agree, did you ever speak with the barrel maker about it?
No I have not. I scoped the barrel from stem to stern after it was scrubbed to the bone. It looked fine to me. However, I am not a barrel maker and I may be looking at something and not know it. Having said that, this is the third barrel from this maker that hes not shot up to par. I won't be buying any more from them>>> I won't say the name of the maker, no need to ask..
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Sorry I got a little off track, back to the original topic. If you use Varget I would have a hard time going to anything other than H-4350 next. During load development with my current 47L I went right at known load range with both Varget and H-4350 and it shot .2's to low .3's with both. Going back and forth between BR-4's and 450's would either shave or open .1.
I run a .198" FB with a 28" barrel (H-4350) and push it on the high end, 2880 fps with a Hybrid 140 and worked the load up in 90 degree weather until it hit high node. Then a quick seating depth adjustment sucked it in some more and I left well enough alone, It's well within ShootDots standard for a "really good barrel"
I have always had good luck with H-4350 in the other barrels also, and handled temp swings well.
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Have you considered just buying more Varget so you don't run out? And if powder availability is your driving reason for wanting an alternate load, H4350 has been one of the least available powders over the past few years, so IMO would be a undesirable choice. IMR 4451 would be a good alternative. RL15 is also a proven winner. RL16 should work.
Have you considered just buying more Varget so you don't run out? And if powder availability is your driving reason for wanting an alternate load, H4350 has been one of the least available powders over the past few years, so IMO would be a undesirable choice. IMR 4451 would be a good alternative. RL15 is also a proven winner. RL16 should work.
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