Elk calibers

[Mr. Ten-X]

6.5x06 w/140SST...and it was only driven at 2870fps. 357yds through point of shoulder, found under hide on far shoulder.

 

[mensajd]

So my OCD is demanding I clarify something:

Muzzle energy can be most closely expressed as mass × velocity × velocity.

Momentum is mass × velocity

[stuff deleted]

The translational kinetic energy of a bullet is 1/2mv^2 (or 1/2kmv^2 if you insist on using oddball units of measure (e.g., imperial units), where k is a constant that depends upon the specific units of measure selected).

 

[Evan]

The translational kinetic energy of a bullet is 1/2mv^2 (or 1/2kmv^2 if you insist on using oddball units of measure (e.g., imperial units), where k is a constant that depends upon the specific units of measure selected).

Agreed, although the 1/2 and the k aren't useful because we aren't going to calculate energy like that. I was only wanting folks to understand that in physics, energy goes by the square of velocity, so velocity is a exponentially more important to energy than bullet mass. Proponents of fast bullets think the energy is important. Proponents of heavy bullets are probably thinking about momentum and not energy when they are making arguments about knock down power and such.

 

[Evan]

After all, Newton's law describes forces, not energy, and velocity the important aspect because it drives the bullet.

Force and energy are related, but force is most cleanly defined as a change in momentum. Since we're dealing with motion here, everything can be neatly correlated through velocity and mass, which is nice because those are the variables we have. We just all need to be careful to use the right terminology. Momentum, Energy, and Impulse are all different, but folks confuse them which makes it difficult to discuss this successfully.

 

[mensajd]

@Evan - I wasn't disagreeing with the underlying discussion. But since my undergraduate degree was in theoretical math, I like to see these equations in their canonical forms. Cheers!

P.S. Calculating the rotational kinetic energy and determining if its contribution is significant is left as an exercise for the reader!

 

[gbp]

all this talk of ft/lbs of energy being required, is nothing more than talk and speculation. plenty of elk killed with a bow and have yet to see one put out 1000 to 1200 ft/lbs of energy

placement is key

 

[Shrek]

Shoot a rifle you shoot well. Sure bigger is better if you’re comfortable shooting it but if you’re not comfortable behind your 300 win mag then it’s a terrible rifle to hunt anything with. If you’re comfortable with a 6.5 creedmore then put a 140+ in it and go kill an elk. My 6.5 SAUM does everything I need and I’m not afraid of it.

 

[rammac]

I disagree.
Doing a premortom on a situation is an incredibly good way to make decisions. As a firefighter and leader of fighters we are always asking ourselves, “what if the unthinkable happens”? This hunter is simply using the same logic, “what if I miss a wind call”? What if ????????

CW

Well heck, in that case I guess we should all use a .50 caliber, after all, I would suppose that it would kill an elk even if you hit it in the leg.

 

[drover]

all this talk of ft/lbs of energy being required, is nothing more than talk and speculation. plenty of elk killed with a bow and have yet to see one put out 1000 to 1200 ft/lbs of energy

placement is key

Not exactly a apples to apples comparison since an arrow kills by hitting a vital and the animal bleeds to death wheras the bullet kills by shock and destruction of a major organ.

drover

 

[Bc'z]

all this talk of ft/lbs of energy being required, is nothing more than talk and speculation. plenty of elk killed with a bow and have yet to see one put out 1000 to 1200 ft/lbs of energy

placement is key

Even a bullet proof vest wont stop an arrow.
Minus plating of course.

 

[jds holler]

I've shot seven elks, all cows, with my 270 Win. Most of them took off running as if they hadn't been hit. I recovered all of them, some of them took awhile. The longest range on any of those elk was less than 200 yards.

I'm a pretty good shot with that rifle, but I would never take a shot at 300 or 400 yards or more; not because I couldn't make the shot, but--- I know how hard it is to find the tracks or blood trail of a wounded elk that has been shot from a quarter mile away.

So many of the posts on this thread make it sound so easy to pull off that 400 yard shot (or further) and seem to think all ya need is a big enough gun, and I'm wondering how many of these guys have actually hunted in real elk country. Finding the same tracks an elk was standing in when you shot it can be incredibly hard, especially if you are by yourself.

I guess what I'm saying, concerning the cartridge suitable for killing elk, is that the way I do it, anything from 243 on up would be sufficient. I'll take shots that I know I won't miss, and from ranges that make tracking easy.

Bcz, I've also been trying the bow/elk thing, and have called bulls within range. I also have not been able to seal the deal. Just haven't had the right angle, or clear shot. I feel pretty good that I didn't feel the need to fling an arrow on a sketchy shot. jd

 

[gbp]

Not exactly a apples to apples comparison since an arrow kills by hitting a vital and the animal bleeds to death wheras the bullet kills by shock and destruction of a major organ.

drover

So your saying I should just launch a bowling ball at them and not worry about placement? TFF

 

[Kracken McGraw]

The one cow I have shot was on the run. Other hunters below had sent a bunch of cows and spikes up to clearing I was watching. Could hear the sound of them pickin-up, puttin-down from a long ways off. When they passed me, I was glad I had a 30-06 with 180gr grand slams instead of a smaller caliber rifle.

 

[Bc'z]

I've shot seven elks, all cows, with my 270 Win. Most of them took off running as if they hadn't been hit. I recovered all of them, some of them took awhile. The longest range on any of those elk was less than 200 yards.

I'm a pretty good shot with that rifle, but I would never take a shot at 300 or 400 yards or more; not because I couldn't make the shot, but--- I know how hard it is to find the tracks or blood trail of a wounded elk that has been shot from a quarter mile away.

So many of the posts on this thread make it sound so easy to pull off that 400 yard shot (or further) and seem to think all ya need is a big enough gun, and I'm wondering how many of these guys have actually hunted in real elk country. Finding the same tracks an elk was standing in when you shot it can be incredibly hard, especially if you are by yourself.

I guess what I'm saying, concerning the cartridge suitable for killing elk, is that the way I do it, anything from 243 on up would be sufficient. I'll take shots that I know I won't miss, and from ranges that make tracking easy.

Bcz, I've also been trying the bow/elk thing, and have called bulls within range. I also have not been able to seal the deal. Just haven't had the right angle, or clear shot. I feel pretty good that I didn't feel the need to fling an arrow on a sketchy shot. jd

Slightly off topic, but hey that's my M O.
The thing about bow hunting elk solo is, you are the mouse that scurried across their
Livingroom. It ain't easy going solo.

 

[Evan]

So your saying I should just launch a bowling ball at them and not worry about placement? TFF

No you should club it. Then once that horse is dead, you keep clubbing it... whoops. I mean elk, and we're talking about what to shoot it with again, right?

 

[Jaybo]

Any thing 30 Cal and up. my preferred caliber for Elk is 338 it will anchor a big bull quick

 

[Don_Parsons]

A person "might" be able to get away with a 243 for large game animals like Elk and Moose, but there "could" be lots of factors that might not work out in one's favor,,, distance, shot placement, angle of critter, bullet construction,,, and the person behind the rifle. Did the bullet get away clean,,, or were there under lieing factors at play.

All of us always hope that things work out,,, isn't that part of the hunting,,, where do each of us draw the line on what is enough bullet and energy to get the job done,,, is there a rib bone added into the mix, what if a front shoulder shot is the only one available with the limited time to get it off.

Would we be happy with 800 ft-lbs energy at X distance ,,,maybe 1000,,, how about 11 or 1600 ft-lbs energy, let's not rule out more ft-lbs if we can shot it with our skills.

How about that bullet, is that critter going to take it hard,,, or run with it,,, is our plan to anchor it ,kill it or hope it finishes it off.

What is enough gun, where is that distance at where the trigger is not pulled.

The only one who "should" know this is the person them selves,,, what end of the scale do you choose to give up ,,, and what is acceptable for your needs.

Each of us get to set our limits,,, just because my limits are high doesn't mean the next persons can't be set higher or lower.

I've heard of folks using the 837 ft-lbs rule ,,, some draw the line at 1200,,, I like to see 16 to 1700 ft-lbs on thick skins ,,, a fraction less on Deer,,, so I use a 308 winchester or 30/06 with Grand Slams at close range. If the bullet reaches the 200+ meter mark,,, I start thinking,,, deffinatly thinking 2 X's at the 300 mark,,, this might not be the case when I had the 300 Mag on the go.

Hay,,, that's just me,,, each person gets to draw there own line in the sand.

What I shoot in competion is one thing,,, I don't bring that rule of thumb into the killing fields since its kind of a different game all together,,, less the part about getting a clean shot off I "hope."

Lots of factors at play once we step out side the gate into the wilds.

"Hopefully" all of us have our ducks in a row as things play out,,, 10% gun / catrage / bullet,,, 90% shooter behind the trigger.

Cheers from Don

 

[Idaho-Lefty]

Accuracy is your number one concern. A killing shot is a killing shot. A poorly placed shot is a poorly placed shot.

THIS ^^^^ as ANY of, the 3 .270's ( Win., WBY or WSM ) with, the RIGHT Bullet ( that "mushrooms" a bit, in 140-150 grain ) will shoot through, an Elks Rib cage, and puncture the Lung's/ Heart and even if you, clip the shoulder on the way "out" they will, die, fairly quickly at,.. reasonable ranges ! You need, to get your breathing, trigger and nerves, under control, to hit THIS area, OR,.. DON'T shoot ! The .270's, 7mm RM, .30-06's, 7mm-08, etc are "all the Gun" that, MOST men can shoot ACCURATELY withOUT developing,.. a "flinch" ! AND, a "CHIT TON" of Elk have been killed with them, by "Hunters" ! Son and I, just recently, killed 2 Bulls this year, his with a 7mm-08, 150 ELD-X, mine w/ .270 WSM, 140 Nosler Accubond,.. both dead and Freezers full !

 

[Idaho-Lefty]

Practice in the summer shooting and you will know your comfort zone. Everyone’s is different, shoot from different positions like off your pack from the ground and not all from a bench then you will have a better understanding of YOUR level of accuracy and at what distance you are comfortable with taking a shot. Shoot in the wind and messy conditions as well. Shot placement trumps all else so be honest with yourself. I can cold bore steel at 1000 on my range at times but I’m not comfortable taking that shot on animals even though my caliber will carry the energy. Practice. Troy

THIS ^^^^ Well said,.. My son and I practiced, off "sticks" with, a Pack on our Chests, that's holding the Rifles "Toe" very STILL, to 400 Yards and we were hitting 10" Steel disc's 5X in a row. Then over the Packs, Prone position with Toe support bag, to 650 yards, using custom made, VERIFIED Tapes, on our Scope Turrets. We figure our Guns "could Kill' ( bullets, still "Mushroom" ) to 750-800 Yards, if necessary, but as experienced shooter/ Hunters, we realize WIND, is a "huge factor" in the Mountains and a true "unknown" !! So we imposed, self limits of 650 yards MAX on Elk ! But we ended up shooting, only 250 yards for him and 60-70 yards, on my Elk ! LOL ! We walked a LOT of Miles, saw a lot of Elk ( Idaho and Arizona ). We SOLD our BIG, heavy weight, Guns, his 300 WSM and my .338 Win. Mag that, I "thought" I had to have when, I was, 30- 40 years old, but we found out that we can "shoot", the 7 RM, .30-06/ .270 win, 7mm-08, and .270 WSM, so much better !

 

[rwk]

I have 3
338 win mag
30-06
279 wsm