F/TR Loading Setup - starting from scratch

[Bc'z]

Train like you fight. You cant get ready to battle bruce lee by spending months sparring with a 5th grade karate class. A 22 cant train you to shoot any centerfire no matter how much you wish it would. Its an excuse to buy another rifle.

That's what I thought.
Now I did get a .22 for the wife to shoot, but that was to help with sight picture after getting 8 stitches from a KNARLEY scope bite

 

[Ned Ludd]

After reading all posts I've got a question for you competitor's. Sorry if it's a lil off topic but ....
If using a .22 as a trainer can cause you to develop bad shooting habits due to lack of recoil.
Wouldn't it behoove you to practice with a rifle with more recoil than the rifle you use for score?
For example. After shooting my 06', then switch to the 260 or 6five it's like I dont even feel the recoil.

Yes...this is why God made 210 JLKs for .308 Win.

 

[1shot]

Train like you fight. You cant get ready to battle bruce lee by spending months sparring with a 5th grade karate class. A 22 cant train you to shoot any centerfire no matter how much you wish it would. Its an excuse to buy another rifle.

Again, this depends on you competition discipline. As a sling shooter, I practice with a 22 because your trigger management skills tend to get rusty fairly fast. You are 100% correct that there is no perceived recoil, however the the bullets time in the barrel is much more. Poor trigger management will show up on target immediately. Even at 50' poor body alignment while in the sling will show up on target as horizontal stringing, so for me rimfire helps.
I hope this helps,

Lloyd

 

[XTR]

...Its an excuse to buy another rifle.

I love that one.

I've got a 40x in 22LR set up like my F-TR rifle, and I don't think it helps my F-TR game, though it is really fun to shoot.

I've got a 22LR upper for my service rifle. I think it helps me in position shooting. Now my opinions of what is helpful in SR are worth little, I'm not even classified yet, but there are a lot of guys who have used the rimfire uppers for practice to get to Master classifications. I believe them when they tell me it helps.

 

[TrxR]

When starting from brand new brass do you set the f/l die to bump the shoulder back a thou or 2 and continue with that or do you try and get a couple of firings in to fully form the brass before full length sizing?

I like the idea of one less sizing step.

my biggest problem is over thinking things.

 

[XTR]

When starting from brand new brass do you set the f/l die to bump the shoulder back a thou or 2 and continue with that or do you try and get a couple of firings in to fully form the brass before full length sizing?

I like the idea of one less sizing step.

my biggest problem is over thinking things.

If your once fired brass will chamber with out resistance (unless you are running nuclear loads it should) then set your die up to the point that it will not bump the shoulder on once fired brass. If you shoot one chamber, and you anneal, then you are pretty well set at that point. You may have to tweak it a little at some point but you should be w/i about .001 of where you want to be.

If you shoot more than one chamber/barrel then you may need to reset things for one or the other depending on headspace in the chambers.

There is an annealing debate going on in another thread. This is the one thing that I have found that annealing does for me. It lets me get consistent shoulder bump in my cases. If you don't anneal, the brass hardens and the shoulder spring back will cause you to have to reset the die. Then at some point you run a piece of brass with fewer firings through it and you find you've bumped the shoulder .005.

 

[zipollini]

Lee decapping die - they are nice and cheap
Some kind of tumbling device for case cleaning. I use a Thumler's wet tumbler with SS pins
Case drying machine - I use a Franklin Arsenal with a timer
AMP induction annealing machine
21st Century neck turning lathe and cordless screwdriver to drive it.
Whidden new FL bushing custom sizing die with micrometer setting device - use without decamping pin or expander ball
Sinclair expander with floating mandrel
Giraud trimmer
21 Century precision primer seater
21st Century primer pocket uniformer
21st Century flash hole uniformer and chamfer device
Lyman Case prep Xpress machine
Redding collet bullet puller
21st Century hydro press
Wilson inline seating die with Sinclair micrometer top
A good digital caliper
Sinclair neck sorting device with digital dial indicator - https://www.sinclairintl.com/reload...inclair-case-neck-sorting-tool-prod36959.aspx
Whidden Multi-Purpose Overall Length (OAL) Gauge - https://www.whiddengunworks.com/multi-purpose-overall-length-gauge/
Sartorius Entris 64 analytical balance -

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Omega II trickler
Lee powder thrower or Chargemaster 1500

That's it for now. This should get you to where you want to be

 

[Ned Ludd]

When starting from brand new brass do you set the f/l die to bump the shoulder back a thou or 2 and continue with that or do you try and get a couple of firings in to fully form the brass before full length sizing?

I like the idea of one less sizing step.

my biggest problem is over thinking things.

I would say absolutely not. The shoulders of virgin brass are already going to be a couple to several thousandths shorter than they will be after the first firing. You want the brass expanded before bumping the shoulders back. Don't try to set your re-sizing die to properly bump the should back .001" - .002" until after the brass has been fire-formed.

With virgin brass, I use one of Sinclair's oversized expander mandrels (~.001" under caliber) first to open up the all the necks to a relatively uniform diameter, then F/L re-size with the appropriate bushing [die]. The die won't even touch the shoulders of virgin brass, but the mandrel and bushing steps will get you much more consistent neck tension that brass straight out of the box. This may seem like a lot of work for virgin brass, but in my hands this prep allows virgin brass to shoot very consistently, almost as well as fire-formed brass.

 

[TrxR]

I would say absolutely not. The shoulders of virgin brass are already going to be a couple to several thousandths shorter than they will be after the first firing. You want the brass expanded before bumping the shoulders back. Don't try to set your re-sizing die to properly bump the should back .001" - .002" until after the brass has been fire-formed.

With virgin brass, I use one of Sinclair's oversized expander mandrels (~.001" under caliber) first to open up the all the necks to a relatively uniform diameter, then F/L re-size with the appropriate bushing [die]. The die won't even touch the shoulders of virgin brass, but the mandrel and bushing steps will get you much more consistent neck tension that brass straight out of the box. This may seem like a lot of work for virgin brass, but in my hands this prep allows virgin brass to shoot very consistently, almost as well as fire-formed brass.

Sorry . What i meant was do you set the die up to bump the shoulder back .001 or .002 on once fired brass or do you get a couple firings first before bumping the shoulders? Basically is tge brass fully fire formed after the first shot?

 

[Ned Ludd]

Sorry . What i meant was do you set the die up to bump the shoulder back .001 or .002 on once fired brass or do you get a couple firings first before bumping the shoulders? Basically is tge brass fully fire formed after the first shot?

In my hands, the shoulders on virgin brass will move from around .004" to .008" on the first firing (.223 and .308 Lapua brass). They can generally still be re-chambered without issue at that point, but I set the die anyhow, for about .001" or just a tick more. The brass will continue to grow slightly on subsequent firings, but by nowhere near the amount it did on the first firing. So 1X-fired is enough IMO to set the die. You're going to need it to size the necks anyhow (if you don't have some other method for that), so you might as well go ahead and set it after the first firing. You're not likely to get more than another half thousandth or so shoulder movement on subsequent firings. As long as you're never knocking the shoulders back by more than about .002" or so, you'll be fine.

For every brass prep, I select 10 pieces at random and take all the appropriate measurements before and after re-sizing. If you do that and find that you're moving the shoulders back slightly more/less than you wanted to on subsequent firings, it's not a big deal to re-set the die. Most are going to be 14 tpi, so 5 degrees of movement (turn) will give about .001"; it doesn't take much.

 

[1shot]

That is well said @Ned Ludd. To further bring that point home I have shot numerous 198-199 with 40-50% X counts at 1,000 yards while fireforming Lapua 6.5x55 brass to a 6.5 GWI. That is far more radical of a fireform with changing the angle of the shoulder, as well as removing a lot of the body taper that the brass remaining the parent cartridge.
I hope this helps,
Lloyd

 

[Capt. Oblivious]

Sorry . What i meant was do you set the die up to bump the shoulder back .001 or .002 on once fired brass or do you get a couple firings first before bumping the shoulders? Basically is tge brass fully fire formed after the first shot?

I take the measurement of the the once fired brass and set my DIE up to "push" the shoulder back to that measurement.

 

[dolek]

Neck sizing hasnt been popular at all since the 1950’s- especially inside of the competition circles. I think people read lee collet die then just stop and go buy one, then they come back here with brass or bolt closing issues. For many many years shooters have minimum fl sized their brass to not overwork it and still have the bolt close without beating on it or driving home from the range not having fired a shot due to their rounds not chambering at all.

Neck sizing happens everyday...you must at 1000 posts bitching about it.

 

[TrxR]

is it normal for the brass to grow just above the extractor grooves? If so how much us too much? My virgin brass is showing .468 and my once fired is .470. There is no lip or anything up the brass its nice and smooth. My brass also went from 1.619 virgin to 1.623 to 1.624 once fired using a hornady comparator .

Again im probably over thinking things.

 

[1shot]

Agreed. That sounds normal.

Lloyd

 

[SGK]

Sartorius Entris 64 analytical balance -

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Omega II trickler

Best advertisement for an Autotrickler I have ever seen!

 

[zipollini]

Best advertisement for an Autotrickler I have ever seen!

I use the Sartorius Entris 64 and Dandy trickier as in the video you referenced and am ALWAYS faster than the autotrickler and more accurate. ALWAYS. I have done this test many times. This is why I never bought the autotrickler. I use a Chargemaster 1500 to measure out the initial charge to .1g under my final weight and transfer that charge to the Sartorius. I am ALWAYS within +/- 1 kernel.

 

[dcali]

When starting from brand new brass do you set the f/l die to bump the shoulder back a thou or 2 and continue with that or do you try and get a couple of firings in to fully form the brass before full length sizing?

I like the idea of one less sizing step.

my biggest problem is over thinking things.

I shoot new brass striaght out of the box. As Greg said, it comes on the shorter side. I don’t size it at all and I have not found any accuracy degradation (by F TR standards). After the first firing, the base to datum length is generally a little inconsistent. So I measure a dozen cases and set the die to bump the longest one .001 or less. Basically I don’t want to shorten any of it. After a couple firings they even out, and you can begin the .001-.002 sizing routine. But to be honest you could neck size for the first couple firings without issue. At least not with the loads I use in my rifles.

 

[SGK]

I use the Sartorius Entris 64 and Dandy trickier as in the video you referenced and am ALWAYS faster than the autotrickler and more accurate. ALWAYS. I have done this test many times. This is why I never bought the autotrickler. I use a Chargemaster 1500 to measure out the initial charge to .1g under my final weight and transfer that charge to the Sartorius. I am ALWAYS within +/- 1 kernel.

I'm sure I'm not going to change your mind... but you trickle with a Chargemaster and then trickle with the Dandy. I find it very hard to believe that's faster than dumping a dipped precharge into the pan as the Autotrickler is going. The Autotrickler has finished before I have even returned the charging dipper to the powder pot for replenishment. (The Autothrower add-on can automate the pre-charging process.) Even if the need ever occurred, the fastest way to add/subtract a single kernel is with a set of tweezers.

The OP might be interested in the below post from bsumoba who did a side-by-side comparison of the accuracy of a Satorius and the considerably cheaper but eminently capable AD FX 120i. (There is, of course, no reason the Autotrickler can't be used with the more expensive scale.) In short, there is a point where the resolution of the media being measured is the limiting factor rather than the scale's ability to resolve. To be more accurate (ALWAYS just to add back the shouting) you've basically got to cut kernels or pick and choose big from small (to the extent that's even possible). So it is my view that even if one believes that a powder kernel or fractions thereof consistently resolve themselves on the target you're not really going to get a more accurate powder weight (and certainly not ALWAYS) unless you are prepared to deal in fractions of a powder kernel and that's about as anal retentive as I could possibly think of.

The OP can decide how far out on this limb he wants to go. Spend your money where you think it will provide effect. If money is no object then why not buy the more expensive scale and kid yourself you can revolve powder weights to 2 thou gr. The Autotrickler can still deliver +/- a kernel, and fast. A good starting point would be then to take 100 kernels of your favourite powder and measure them on the Sartorious, noting their average weight and SD. You can then come to a conclusion as to what the limiting factor is - a kernel or the scale - and buy a really fine scalpel.

I messed around with the FX 120i last night...My first impressions were that it was bigger than I had expected. Coming from a GemPro 250, I expected something slightly larger than this, but it was almost near the same size as the one I have in my company's stockroom, which is a Satorius and it is a $2K+ industrial/research model. I leveled the unit on my table, made sure there were no drafts even though there are shields provided with the unit, and I left the unit on for an hour, which is 1/2 hour longer than what the manual says to let it warm up.

I borrowed the stockroom Satorius (do not remember the model) that measures 0.002 gr (0.0001g) accuracy and is also calibrated every year. This is used for counting itty bitty parts which I borrowed from work to do this test.

I took all my weights that I have gotten over the years from various scales and measured them on the Satorius. Not to my surprise, all of them weighed in at exactly 20.0000 grams and 50.0000 grams. Who needs a Class-1 weight

I then took (2) of the 50 gram weights and used these to calibrate the FX120i. Finished that and then took a 20gr cal weight and put it on the FX120i. It measured at exactly 20.000 grams. Took an individual 50 gram weight and it measured exactly as well. That was refreshing! ;D

Just for good measure, I took the weights and put them on the Satorius, same thing.

Okay, now I switched to grains on both units, the Satorius and FX120i and used a chargemaster to measure out 56.8 grains of H4831SC. Put this on the Satorius and got 56.826 grains. I removed a kernel to get it to try to get it to exactly 56.800 grains. I could not get it to this number and ended up with 56.804 grains. I suspected if I searched for a "larger" kernel I could get it to exactly 56.800 grains.

Now, I put the 56.804 grain charge onto the FX120i and the unit measured exactly 56.80 grains.

Just to see how the unit would measure a charge, say 56.808 grains on the Satorius, I managed to remove a kernel, added a larger one and finally got it to 56.808 grains. I thought to myself, what a pain! If I was anal enough to want exactly 56.800 grains, that would take a lot of effort!

I took the 56.808 grain charge and put it on the FX120i and I got 56.80 grains. Okay, that is what I expected. I took off the charge, waited a few seconds, and put it back on the scale and it measure 56.80 grains. So it looks like it is stable.

I then changed the charge to 56.812 grains and put it on the FX and got 56.80 grains.

And lastly, I changed the weight to 56.818 grains and sure enough, it measured 56.82 grains.

Keep in mind, for me to get these weights on the Satorius, I had to remove what looked like slightly smaller kernels and add slightly larger ones. If someone is really doing this in real life, I can only imagine that it takes them FOREVER to get a precise 56.800 grain charge.

So what did I get out of this experiment....the preciseness of 0.02 grains is enough for me. There are just too many other variables that affect ES/SD in ammunition like brass, primer and bullet consistency, neck tension, etc. that to worry about kernel sizes to get a precise dead nuts reading of 56.800 grains on a $2K plus unit is probably overkill. The 0.02 grain was enough precision to get all my charges to within 1 kernel, maybe 2 small kernels max from each other.

 

[Dusty Stevens]

I'm sure I'm not going to change your mind... but you trickle with a Chargemaster and then trickle with the Dandy. I find it very hard to believe that's faster than dumping a dipped precharge into the pan as the Autotrickler is going. The Autotrickler has finished before I have even returned the charging dipper to the powder pot for replenishment. (The Autothrower add-on can automate the pre-charging process.) Even if the need ever occurred, the fastest way to add/subtract a single kernel is with a set of tweezers.

The OP might be interested in the below post from bsumoba who did a side-by-side comparison of the accuracy of a Satorius and the considerably cheaper but eminently capable AD FX 120i. (There is, of course, no reason the Autotrickler can't be used with the more expensive scale.) In short, there is a point where the resolution of the media being measured is the limiting factor rather than the scale's ability to resolve. To be more accurate (ALWAYS just to add back the shouting) you've basically got to cut kernels or pick and choose big from small (to the extent that's even possible). So it is my view that even if one believes that a powder kernel or fractions thereof consistently resolve themselves on the target you're not really going to get a more accurate powder weight (and certainly not ALWAYS) unless you are prepared to deal in fractions of a powder kernel and that's about as anal retentive as I could possibly think of.

The OP can decide how far out on this limb he wants to go. Spend your money where you think it will provide effect. If money is no object then why not buy the more expensive scale and kid yourself you can revolve powder weights to 2 thou gr. The Autotrickler can still deliver +/- a kernel, and fast. A good starting point would be then to take 100 kernels of your favourite powder and measure them on the Sartorious, noting their average weight and SD. You can then come to a conclusion as to what the limiting factor is - a kernel or the scale - and buy a really fine scalpel.

Exactly. Then take a rifle setup that can at best shoot a 1/4” group and what do you have except lots of money down the drain? A good ppc rifle can shoot zeros with powder dispensed from a harrels without any kernel uniforming and no annealing. Sometimes we have to look at the bigger picture of whats important and not get caught up in the current trends or we wont even be able to enjoy shooting. By reading some of these posts some of these new guys wont even start shooting without $10k in equipment- they feel its futile.