Testing (preliminary) trim/point testing not what I expected!!

[Mulligan]

I did a very small test of trim lengths using Berger 105 VLD's in my 6 Dasher.
I expected the shorter trim lengths to have the smallest group, certainly not the case..... love testing!
Loads were shot round robin and no hold for the relatively light switchy winds. This was shot at 600 yards.
For those of you who test everything, have you experienced this same sort of thing?
See the attached Excel sheet for more info.
CW

BTW
When I test new things like this, I do not use my sweetheart load. I try to build as much "forgive" in my loads as possible and that has a tendency to hide the the results. So, do not be concerned with the group sizes per se, except relative to each other.
CW

 

[Sheldon N]

I expected the shorter trim lengths to have the smallest group, certainly not the case..... love testing!

So if I'm reading it right, the more you trimmed the better the accuracy? The BC seems to have fallen of a tiny bit, printing lower on the target by about 1 or 2".

What meplat trimmer and pointing setup did you use?

 

[Mulligan]

So if I'm reading it right, the more you trimmed the better the accuracy? The BC seems to have fallen of a tiny bit, printing lower on the target by about 1 or 2".

What meplat trimmer and pointing setup did you use?

Correct, trimming 1.25% was better than the others.
MCR meplat trimmer and a Hoover pointing die.
I sorted the bullets with a Sinclair bullet comparator
The MCR trimmer is a dandy tool, if you go that way I have a couple of tips that might help.

CW

 

[Joe Salt]

Try just pointing and not trimming!

Joe Salt

 

[rardoin]

Correct, trimming 1.25% was better than the others.

The MCR trimmer is a dandy tool, if you go that way I have a couple of tipe that might help.

CW

Please share your tips..... I have a MCR trimmer.

 

[Mulligan]

As requested,
I have shared my notes, which are a work in process (see attached PDF).


Notice the second shaft collar on the MCR trimmer and chamfer tool. These were purchased from a local farm store for under $4.00 each. They make adjusting the stop collars much easier and accurate (see notes). The feeler gauge is also very helpful for this process.
Kind regards
CW

 

[BartsBullets]

So you trimmed all the bullets three separate links.

Did you leave the pointer the same while pointing the 3 difference Bullet lengths?

Bart

 

[Mulligan]

So you trimmed all the bullets three separate links.

Did you leave the pointer the same while pointing the 3 difference Bullet lengths?

Bart

Bart
Good question, yes I did, they were all the same BTO to begin with.
CW

 

[Mulligan]

The thing that caught my attention was one group (red) appearing to have less influnce from the wind......
CW

 

[BartsBullets]

Bart
Good question, yes I did, they were all the same BTO to begin with.
CW

When I tested trimming and pointing bullets. I would take 3 trimmed and pointed bullets and shoot them against 3 unmolested bullets at 100 yards.

I left the trim length the same, but kept decreasing how much I pointed them. At first the pointed bullets shot like crap, but as I backed off the pointer they eventually started shooting as good as the unmolsted bullets.

My guess is....the bullets that were trimmed the most got pointed the least.

Bart

 

[Mulligan]

When I tested trimming and pointing bullets. I would take 3 trimmed and pointed bullets and shoot them against 3 unmolested bullets at 100 yards.

I left the trim length the same, but kept decreasing how much I pointed them. At first the pointed bullets shot like crap, but as I backed off the pointer they eventually started shooting as good as the unmolsted bullets.

My guess is....the bullets that were trimmed the most got pointed the least.

Bart

That is correct, you can see how that group hit a bit lower on the target. Leading one to believe the BC is lower...... BC isn’t everything
CW

Edit
@BartsBullets
If you have not looked at the PDF in the original post, check it out. All the lengths and measurements are included.
CW

 

[Ned Ludd]

Unfortunately, a single 5-shot group at 600 yd has little statistical significance in terms of whether any difference was due to the pointing, the load, or the conditions. In fact, even at 100 yd where the effect of the environmental conditions on group spread is markedly less, a single 5-shot group has little statistical significance. At 600 yd, the odds that the difference in those three groups was due to something other than how they were pointed is pretty high. If you really want to draw statistically valid conclusions regarding the effect of various pointing approaches, it's going to take a lot more than a single 5-shot group.

 

[BartsBullets]

The thing that caught my attention was one group (red) appearing to have less influnce from the wind......
CW

That is correct, you can see how that group hit a bit lower on the target. Leading one to believe the BC is lower...... BC isn’t everything
CW

Edit
@BartsBullets
If you have not looked at the PDF in the original post, check it out. All the lengths and measurements are included.
CW

Absolutely I looked at it! I personally am not concerned about BC! I’m only interested in how the bullets group. A few extra points of BC won’t save you at a match.

I’ve done a LOT of testing with pointing. I’ve played with pointing bullets in ways that the average shooter can’t, such as using a boat tail punch the Bullet was designed for to cradle the base of the bullet while pointing. I’ve even have a special punch that pointed the bullet while it is inside the boat tail bullet die.

My experience when pointing is LESS is MORE!

 

[Falfan2017]

Absolutely I looked at it! I personally am not concerned about BC! I’m only interested in how the bullets group. A few extra points of BC won’t save you at a match.

I’ve done a LOT of testing with pointing. I’ve played with pointing bullets in ways that the average shooter can’t, such as using a boat tail punch the Bullet was designed for to cradle the base of the bullet while pointing. I’ve even have a special punch that pointed the bullet while it is inside the boat tail bullet die.

My experience when pointing is LESS is MORE!

One thing I've been curious about is if pointing is beneficial why aren't custom bullets already pointed?

 

[BartsBullets]

One thing I've been curious about is if pointing is beneficial why aren't custom bullets already pointed?

I personally don’t find it beneficial.

 

[BartsBullets]

Milligan,

Sorry hijacking your post! Just sharing my experiences.

Id be curious how just trimmed bullets would do vs trimmed and pointed. The .282 Group at 600 I shot, the bullets were just trimmed.

My thoughts are it’s more important to have bullets with the same BC, then a higher one!

What do you think?

Bart

 

[BoydAllen]

Bart have you ever trimmed short range bullets? If so, what were the results?

 

[Mulligan]

Milligan,

Sorry hijacking your post! Just sharing my experiences.

Id be curious how just trimmed bullets would do vs trimmed and pointed. The .282 Group at 600 I shot, the bullets were just trimmed.

My thoughts are it’s more important to have bullets with the same BC, then a higher one!

What do you think?

Bart

Don't worrry about hijacking, you’re not.
This is great stuff! Thank you for the insight.
CW

 

[Mulligan]

Milligan,

Sorry hijacking your post! Just sharing my experiences.

Id be curious how just trimmed bullets would do vs trimmed and pointed. The .282 Group at 600 I shot, the bullets were just trimmed.

My thoughts are it’s more important to have bullets with the same BC, then a higher one!

What do you think?

Bart

I will back the pointing die off about .010 and give it another go.

Did you find trimming the same as pointing (less is more)?
CW

 

[mikeeg02]

My testing showed at 1k, the ones I trimmed only shot about 8-10" low on the target compared to untouched. Trimmed only shot a little wide, but no fliers, and less vertical.

Pointed and trimmed still had less vertical, and shot narrow like untouched. These shot maybe 4-6" higher than then reference group (cant remember exactly) I hadn't changed the load between any of these groupings.

I'm using factory bullets. And when pointing, I believe you make the nose / leading edge of the bullet consistent. I think that's why some will grow more than others as different dies have different amounts of wear. Even if they were trimmed first and start at the same over all length. Some of this is probably not applicable to custom bullets that are already made from one die and are truly as identical as possible.