Custom actions.... are they worth the $$$$?

[LA50SHOOTER]

Actions are like anything else. As well made as the customs are, they can be improved. High dollar stocks are the same way. Your gunsmith is going to do some tweaking to make things work right/well. How much money are you willing to pay for perfect?

- I consider it part of the cost to build a project rifle. - " How much money are you willing to pay for perfect?" - As much as it costs is my honest answer to your question. - If I'm spending 6-8K already on parts & services the "perfect" is part of the services and it's also part of "Knowing" how to work with the gunsmith. - When I pursue a project I fill out a work-order and my gunsmith Knows to contact me if there's something that needs to be addressed. - That's part of the relationship we've built over the years.

 

[JRS]

Yes indeed they have been checked & very closely. And not everything was 100% perfect on every action. But they were checked & worked on by the likes of Gordy Gritters and Greg Tannel when the work-scopes ensued. - Also, I'm not saying that the factory actions can't be brought up to very high standards, I have several Savage Target actions that I had gone through and even had the bolts double-sleeved on along with the "truing work" - The cost to have this done equaled the cost of the new action, so in essence I ended up paying about double the cost of the "as delivered" action to bring it up to what I wanted in "standards". - I believe that todays high quality custom actions offer a lot, 100% perfect all the time, No. - That's why they should be checked as well and any corrective measures needed then carried out. IMO factory "remingchester" is not in the same "League" as a BAT or Borden action.

Regards, - Ron -

Of course they aren't in the same "league", and the fit, finish, quality, and price reflect that. Are Corbin bullet making dies in the same "league" as Ulrich bullet making dies? Absolutely not, and the difference in quality and man hours are reflected in the price.

 

[LA50SHOOTER]

Of course they aren't in the same "league", and the fit, finish, quality, and price reflect that. Are Corbin bullet making dies in the same "league" as Ulrich bullet making dies? Absolutely not, and the difference in quality and man hours are reflected in the price.

- Agree 100% - So what's your point Sir ?

 

[JRS]

- Agree 100% - So what's your point Sir ?

The point is, you can't compare mass produced factory products with custom made products with numerous options to suit your needs/wants for the same amount of money. I have enough faith and trust in the gunsmith I use to drop off my parts and pieces and leave it up to him to use his professionalism and judgement to build it. We don't discuss price until he calls me and tells me the gun is ready. With my parts, pieces and reamer in his possession, he knows what I want, and he has the freedom to made it work to his satisfaction, and it doesn't leave his shop until he is perfectly satisfied with his finished work.

 

[LA50SHOOTER]

The point is, you can't compare mass produced produced factory products with custom made products with numerous options to suit your needs/wants for the same amount of money. I have enough faith and trust in the gunsmith I use to drop off my parts and pieces and leave it up to him to use his professionalism and judgement to build it. We don't discuss price until he calls me and tells me the gun is ready. With my parts, pieces and reamer in his possession, he knows what I want, and he has the freedom to made it work to his satisfaction, and it doesn't leave his shop until he is perfectly satisfied with his finished work.

I never compared anything JRS - I simply stated what I know to be true.

 

[geo.ulrich]

- I don't agree with this at all in the case of both Borden Actions and BAT Machine Company. Both of these business are well directed and are in fact run from the "Front Line" by the actual owners. - Jim Borden, Bruce Thom & Daryle Thom have built companies that produce very high quality actions and these men are committed to high quality. - I have NO vested interest in either company, but I own 9 BAT actions and 2 Borden actions and I have yet to find problems that were of any significance & wasn't rectifiable.
My .02 - Ron -

I'm glad to see you edited this post, so after they were checked and problems rectified now they are good. kind of makes my point

 

[LA50SHOOTER]

I'm glad to see you edited this post, so after they were checked and problems rectified now they are good. kind of makes my point

George, I think we can "possibly agree" that "most" custom actions will have way less defects and tolerance discrepancies in comparison to the standard factory action. - One item that was pointed out and "made better" was locking lug contact on a couple of the actions (Not Borden's). Not 100% perfect or to the "quality standard" that the machinist likes to see. - I'll be the first to agree that even though custom, it doesn't guarantee that the action is 100% perfect. - I also realize that yourself as a tool & die maker, your level of tolerances may far exceed other type of machining requirements. - Thank You & Regards - Ron -

 

[geo.ulrich]

yes better or straighter if that's even a word...

 

[Evan]

I wanted to throw out there that some folks seem to be only talking about how true an action is, while Alex has brought up numerous times in the forums that the timing and ignition are critical components that need attention when building a top flight custom.

So to maybe shift direction a little for those of us considering this question in a very practical manner for an upcoming build: what customs are the better deal on average? There's a real difference even among customs in price. Does a Rem clone and a BAT come out as a wash on average because you spend more time fixing the clone, bringing the price up to a BAT that frequently has a better out-of-the-box setup? I understand that you might get lucky or unlucky with either, but I'm less concerned about exceptions to the rule right now.

As an example of what I'm trying to discern: if I buy a 1600 BAT and it takes 200 to touch it up, that 1800 now gives me a "top tier" custom that runs right. If I buy a rem clone for 900 and then it ends up needing 600 in touch up to run right, I'm in 1500 on a rem clone that simply will not be worth the 300 saved over the BAT down the road.

Is that a fair statement? What actions do we put in this top tier as "most fixable" in combination with best retained value?

 

[bichettereds]

Just curious... what would be a good estimate on how many man hours goes into producing a Kelbly or Bat action?

Still wondering

 

[mikeeg02]

I wanted to throw out there that some folks seem to be only talking about how true an action is, while Alex has brought up numerous times in the forums that the timing and ignition are critical components that need attention when building a top flight custom.

So to maybe shift direction a little for those of us considering this question in a very practical manner for an upcoming build: what customs are the better deal on average? There's a real difference even among customs in price. Does a Rem clone and a BAT come out as a wash on average because you spend more time fixing the clone, bringing the price up to a BAT that frequently has a better out-of-the-box setup? I understand that you might get lucky or unlucky with either, but I'm less concerned about exceptions to the rule right now.

As an example of what I'm trying to discern: if I buy a 1600 BAT and it takes 200 to touch it up, that 1800 now gives me a "top tier" custom that runs right. If I buy a rem clone for 900 and then it ends up needing 600 in touch up to run right, I'm in 1500 on a rem clone that simply will not be worth the 300 saved over the BAT down the road.

Is that a fair statement? What actions do we put in this top tier as "most fixable" in combination with best retained value?

I would say it will never be worth more than retail. And watching the classifieds from time to time, the bats, kelblys, bordens, just to name a few generally sell used for list price or very close, even after being used. Whether it's a 700 clone design or not doesn't seem to make much difference, I think its more about who made it.

Still wondering

That would be a complicated answer. Are you asking how many hours went into the CNC program file? How many went into metal prep, quality control, finishing touches, hand lapping, custom modifications, treatments, all of the above ? I think trying to have someone answer your question without actually calling and asking the manufacturer would only be hypothetical guessing at best. But I'm sure if you'd like to know, kelblys would be happy to talk with you and give you an idea on theirs. I'm not sure I've found a company happier to talk with customers.

 

[geo.ulrich]

I wanted to throw out there that some folks seem to be only talking about how true an action is, while Alex has brought up numerous times in the forums that the timing and ignition are critical components that need attention when building a top flight custom

I wanted to throw out there that some folks seem to be only talking about how true an action is, while Alex has brought up numerous times in the forums that the timing and ignition are critical components that need attention when building a top flight custom.

Just to clarify action must be straight to start with then timing and ignition issue can be addressed. you can't get good ignition with a crooked bolt or bent firing pin or dragging spring you have to minimize drag...

 

[swd]

You can take a Chevy Impala and with enough money and effort make it go really fast and handle well but no matter how much you do to it it will still never be a Ferrari.

Some guys are happy and even proud to shoot a trued up 700 or Savage and be competive with customs and many see the value of customs and enjoy the quality of them. Pick your poison, just don't confuse the quality of a Borden or Bat and a hot rodded 700 or Savage.

 

[dcali]

That would be a complicated answer. Are you asking how many hours went into the CNC program file? How many went into metal prep, quality control, finishing touches, hand lapping, custom modifications, treatments, all of the above ? I think trying to have someone answer your question without actually calling and asking the manufacturer would only be hypothetical guessing at best. But I'm sure if you'd like to know, kelblys would be happy to talk with you and give you an idea on theirs. I'm not sure I've found a company happier to talk with customers.

I very much doubt that the manufacturers know how many man hours go into an action. That's just not how productivity is measured these days. It's a useless number.

 

[mikeeg02]

I very much doubt that the manufacturers know how many man hours go into an action. That's just not how productivity is measured these days. It's a useless number.

I personally dont care. Someone else on the forum was asking, and then repeating when they didnt get an answer. So I suggested the best way I could think of for them to get the answer to their question.

 

[eddief]

Not so much remingtons are out worse sometimes a lot worse I have not messed with any in awhile but I remember it taking .015-.025 to clean up receiver threads..

Threads yes, the worst I have had was .032" to clean up threads(rem700) but you only mentioned receiver face and lugs, honestly I am seeing the new Rem's have much better threads since going to CNC. Most Remington 700 receiver faces I have seen usually clean up within .004, internal lugs usually within .002" -.0025" Bolts are all over the place depending on how straight the body is, but usually clean up within a couple thou also

Ignition has always been an issue. I have been correcting primary extraction and sear/cocking piece handoff, then increasing firing pin fall to make up the difference if needed for about the last 6-7 years. I have tested shroud thread fit, played with bolt body threads and never seen much difference on target. In fact, I have a bunch of shrouds left over, that have only been partially threaded so I could individually fit them to a bolt.

 

[geo.ulrich]

You are lucky to have oversize or partially threaded shrouds, I had a bunch years ago from either George Kelby or Bob Adamowicz can't remember its sure easier than having to make them...

 

[Alex Wheeler]

I dont love threads for fitting shrouds. I much prefer well fitted bearing surface. You only need a couple turns of loose threads to hold the shroud in.

 

[eddief]

My oversized shrouds were fit the same way via bearing surface and thread fit, i just used more threads. Same difference, threads were fit and shoulder was turned to fit into back of bolt. Juice isn't worth the squeeze IMO.

 

[eddief]

You are lucky to have oversize or partially threaded shrouds, I had a bunch years ago from either George Kelby or Bob Adamowicz can't remember its sure easier than having to make them...

You are lucky to have oversize or partially threaded shrouds, I had a bunch years ago from either George Kelby or Bob Adamowicz can't remember its sure easier than having to make them...

If you want any let me know