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22-250 groups fell apart! How?

This man is wise.

The KEY to making the VT shoot is trimming the mag box to where it is loose, and NEVER tighten the center screw. On my recent 243 I acquired I bedded my front end which is pretty easy, and it makes the action fit super tight and precise . I did not bed the rear tang to a tight fit. I was told to leave it where it can move.

My 243 shoots shockingly well, and my 22-250 from back in the say would shoot under 1/2 a LOT at almost 4000 fps and took, hundreds of Ghogs.

Yes. Very wise. Just this week I trimmed the box magazine to make it loose and have kept the center screw loose as well. I'm working more with ackleyman to get things tuned up.

I Got JB cleaner this week and new brushed as well. I put over 250 strokes on the JB wearing out 3 brushed to get it clean. Now I am working on seating depth to get it right.

I know, I know... "Its dumb hopes and the barrel is worn out". Shame on me for trying?
 
Okay! Here are the results.

I worked with Ackleyman on getting my 22-250 groups back in check. Pretty good results came of it. Here are all the things I did to the rifle. I was hoping to do these one at a time and see what helped the most but I got excited and did them all at once.

Internal Box
The internal box was jammed up tight against the action. I couldn't move it until I let the actions screws loose. I had to remove some material from the top of the box to allow the action to sit further into the stock. The box is now loss and can be moved around with a little finger pressure. While doing this I inlet a couple tight spot for the action as well, not a lot, but a few locations.

Actions Screw
When I reassembled the rifle I tightened the front action screw to 65 in-lbs (manufacture recommends 90 in-lbs). The screw behinds the trigger guard was tightened to 25 in-lbs and the center screw was left finger tight.

Crown
I very lightly filed the ding in the crown with a small hand file. I know this isn't the best thing to do but I didn't have much to loose.

Cleaning
Holy B-jesus did I clean, and clean, and clean. I had originally used sweets to remove the copper fouling but groups had not gotten better. I did 4-5 rounds of the foaming bore cleaner accompanied by a brush and wiped clean with patches around an old brush (Over 200 strokes total). I ordered new brushes (12 pack) and JB Bore Cleaner at the suggestions of Ackleyman. I did around 250-300 strokes with the JB. So many the barrel thermometer started to heat up. I wore out 3 brushes in the process. I was surprised to learn how quickly a brush can actually ware out. I think I have it clean now.

Bullet seating
After cleaning the seating depth change was an eye opener. I use 50g V-max for the 1-14 twist barrel, I was seating the bullets into the case a good 0.300. Ackleyman explained a way to measure seating depth with a case that has the neck cut to allow a bullet to push into the case. I got different results with that than the Hornady seat gauge tool. This may be because i am using a case from my die, rather than the hornady gauge case.
When measuring the new seating depth for the 50g V-max I couldn't get the bullet to touch the lands and push into the cut case. This made me think I was doing it wrong. So i got out a 75g A-max and tried it. The 75g touched the lands and pushed into the case. I could measure the difference before and after to know it had changed, it was also visually obvious. SO, this means the 50g V-max is not getting to the lands when placed as far out of the case as possible. I pulled a couple (20 or so) of the v-max I had loaded and re-set them as far out of the case as possible. I had about 0.100 or less of bullet neck tension area.
At Ackleyman's suggestions I also ordered 63gr sierra semi points. The 63g sierras are deigned to be used in the slower twist 1-12 and 14 barrels. These have a very long flat and I was able to touch the lands with these while measuring, then back them up 0.005 from the lands. I loaded these with 33g of Varget
Below is a photo of the 3 rounds. Originals, reset 50g and 63 sierras.

Results
Last night I finally got to shoot the rifle again. WOW! What an improvement! These are slightly better groups than I was getting before things fell apart! See targets below. I shot slow strings of 5 letting the barrel cool down between each string. I shot a total of 40 rounds and accuracy hung right in there.
To my surprise the seating depth did not change the group size. The long seat and short seat grouped very nice in the same place on the target. The change in kegs of powder was also a non factor anymore. The 63gr sierras didn't fair as well as I had hoped, but I learned a lot from ordering them and seeing what they are and can do. I will try them some more to see if they improve.
I shot out to 200yds on steel I have set up and the groups were an inch or a little over. Very please.

Down the road
I will be taking this rifle on the next P-dog trip in September. I'll change back to my old scope so I will have a few more rounds to shoot while sighting-in to make sure the groups are staying tight as the barrel builds more copper again. On the trip will likely have to be more diligent about cleaning the bore more often and better than in the past. If I think groups are really falling apart I'll give it a good cleaning with the JB and see if it gets better. I know I am near the end of the barrel life but want to use the 1000 rounds I already have loaded for this barrel on this trip. Next winter I will be able to re-barrel if the rifle does not fair so well on this next trip.

Thank you, everyone, for your help and comments. Especially to Ackleyman. Which one of the fixes above brought the accuracy back we may never know. I am glad I didn't jump to the new barrel conclusion right away, but we will see how many more rounds the rifle will hold together.
Happy hunting.


Photos
3 new rounds with seating differnces.
Left - Origional load, Center - reset 50g V-Max out as far as I was comfortable, Right - new 63g sierras. You can see how much further the lands got.
20180617_134402.jpg

Target 1 - Origional 50g V-Max load and seating
5 shot group. I know I pulled the one shot out of the group.
20180619_195545.jpg

Target 2 - 50g V-Max rest to long seating lenght (I don't think I wrote down the correct seating depth. This should be more like 2.3880)
20180619_195557.jpg

Target 3 - 63g sierra SMP with 33g Varget and long seating. ( I was hoping for more out of this. I hav a few rounds of it left and will try again)
20180619_195604.jpg
 
I LOVE IT! Nothing like learning a few things, spending only a small handful of presidents and coming out with a great ending!!
 
If you put the load in with the light seating into your chamber and push it in there with your finger, will the load fall out when you tip the gun upside down? Or does it get stuck in the chamber? I can't believe how much the rifiling has degraded down due to wear if you can seat that sucker and it doesn't get stuck. Good to know it's still holding accuracy at that point too. Hope for results posted for this September trip.
 
That ding looks horrible - I could never live such a terrible situation and would get the barrel re-crowned!!! Horrible flipping bullets.

Other easy to perform stuff has been mentioned - especially the loose magazine box - like don't "pillar bed" your rifle using a magazine box. The M77 MKII is an exceptionally rigid action but screws can exert huge amounts of tension.

Your gun area is well organized and tidy and that would certainly indicate that you have a good approach to problem solving.

The 50 Vmax should be just fine in a 1-14 twist. That ding would certainly cause a sudden degradation in performance.

One of our .22-.250's (1-8 twist, 68 Hornady hpbt) has about 3,000 rounds through it and easily shoots 1 inch at 100. My routine cleaning and inspection involves inspection of crown using a 10X magnifier. I am very fussy about crown conditions and refuse to use various bore sighing tools having spuds that are jammed into muzzles fearing abrasive grit embedded in the spud wearing the crown edge. When cleaning with a brush I never drag the brush back into the crown edge. I realize all this is probably excessive but it makes me happy.
 
That ding looks horrible - I could never live such a terrible situation and would get the barrel re-crowned!!! Horrible flipping bullets.

Other easy to perform stuff has been mentioned - especially the loose magazine box - like don't "pillar bed" your rifle using a magazine box. The M77 MKII is an exceptionally rigid action but screws can exert huge amounts of tension.

Your gun area is well organized and tidy and that would certainly indicate that you have a good approach to problem solving.

The 50 Vmax should be just fine in a 1-14 twist. That ding would certainly cause a sudden degradation in performance.

One of our .22-.250's (1-8 twist, 68 Hornady hpbt) has about 3,000 rounds through it and easily shoots 1 inch at 100. My routine cleaning and inspection involves inspection of crown using a 10X magnifier. I am very fussy about crown conditions and refuse to use various bore sighing tools having spuds that are jammed into muzzles fearing abrasive grit embedded in the spud wearing the crown edge. When cleaning with a brush I never drag the brush back into the crown edge. I realize all this is probably excessive but it makes me happy.

now i certainly prefer a pristine crown but.....

https://www.longrangehunting.com/articles/the-over-rated-crown.670/
 
What a good article. Kinda mind blowing. Lots of airgunners swear that they had poor accuracy until they had the bbl recrowned… I can see certerfire being different but that test was pretty intense. At least now I won't be loosing sleep wondering if my crown looks the same as it did when I bought it lol Only thing I'd mention is that I've read contradictory information (somewhat contradicting I think) in a Brian Litz book to this guys statements regarding "“Barrel flexural properties (bending & hoop stiffness)”.
 
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I, in a previous life, had to read stuff like that frequently, so I never wrote like that - it sure is distracting - does not impress me. If you are going to analyze damaged crowns do just that not get into ballistic coefficients, standard deviation and non-relational stuff intended to impress readers. Possibly, the writer was paid by the number of words vs. content.

What I see is a 50 grain Vmax at probably 3650 - 3800 fps, fired out of a 1-14 twist, the SG is 1.093 according to the JBM calculator and this is regarded as marginal. I ran this using the JBM stability calculator using the JBM length data for the 50 Vmax which was .772 inch and I estimated the length of the plastic tip at .1 inch. I provided a velocity of 3,750 fps. The program kicked out a SG of 1.093. The 63 grain Sierra @ 3300 fps, .755 inch long, had a SG of 1.092.

The "heavy weight" article was real difficult to easily read but I got the impression that it involved 168 grain .308 diameter bullets. The 168 Sierra MK is 1.215 inches long. My zippy .308 loads got about 2,650 fps. Using the same JBM stability program with 2650 fps and a 1-12 twist, I got a SG of 1.708.

At first I had the impression that your groups were about 2-3 inches or so, but recent photos show the 50 Vmax bullets well under 1 inch.

My guess is that the marginally stabilized 50 Vmax having a SG of only 1.093, compared to the hefty 168 Si MK, SG of 1.708 would give some reason of why that gross crown deformity (ding) would open up groups of the marginally stabilized, erratically launched, 50 grain VMax bullets. I assume that the JBM stability calculator uses the Miller method which is generally accepted. When I use the Miller program I see that velocity changes have minor affects on stability; the biggest being length and to some extent temperature (those cold frosty coyote hunting mornings).

What happened to the crown dig photo? I think you are cleaning the barrel excessively - like hundreds of strokes.

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2008/03/inspection-method-for-your-barrel-crown/

My barrel crowns look like the crown shown in the above link and this makes me happy and secure.
Always wishing to avoid paralyzing readers I will stop at this point.
 
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If you put the load in with the light seating into your chamber and push it in there with your finger, will the load fall out when you tip the gun upside down? Or does it get stuck in the chamber?

The bullet does not fall out of the case. With 0.100 seating tension area the bullet is surprisingly well held in the brass neck. With the case fully seated in the chamber and 0.100 seating the bullet is still not touching the lands to it cannot get stuck in the lands and get pulled from the case. If a loose bullet is dropped into the chamber (no case) the bullet will get stop in the lands, it will not fall through the barrel, but, it falls back if the rifle it tipped up unless pressure is added to lodge the bullet in the lands.
 
At first I had the impression that your groups were about 2-3 inches or so, but recent photos show the 50 Vmax bullets well under 1 inch.

What happened to the crown dig photo? I think you are cleaning the barrel excessively - like hundreds of strokes.

At first the groups were 2-3" or more. After all the fix'in listed above the groups came back to less than 1 inch. (see previous pages of thread with photos.)

I lightly filled the crown. I didn't have much to loose assuming a new barrel was needed or a re-crown was warranted, but after the results I got I will leave well-enough alone. I think this crown will see the barrel to the end of its useful life.

Excessive cleaning was, pretty much, the cleaning I was after. I wanted to leave not chance of not cleaning enough. From here forward I will not clean this barrel like this on a regular basis, unless the groups fall apart again.
 
The bullet does not fall out of the case. With 0.100 seating tension area the bullet is surprisingly well held in the brass neck. With the case fully seated in the chamber and 0.100 seating the bullet is still not touching the lands to it cannot get stuck in the lands and get pulled from the case. If a loose bullet is dropped into the chamber (no case) the bullet will get stop in the lands, it will not fall through the barrel, but, it falls back if the rifle it tipped up unless pressure is added to lodge the bullet in the lands.
Thanks. Good to know for some time down the road.
 
Now , do you know the winning power ball numbers ?
By my tedious long term attention to detail including actual shooting results and exacting periodic inspections a reasonable idea of barrel life might be made - I have a .22-.250 that is still producing 1 inch groups @ 100 after 3000 and for practical use that is good enough to kill any rodent up to 400 yards that lives on this planet. I clean it after each session or 50 rounds and stop shooting before fingers get stuck on the barrel (hot frying pan effect). Should I be able to extrapolate barrel life longevity analysis to selection of lottery winning numbers lots of money could be harvested! Some stainless barrels that look ratty inside are good for more than pinning rail-road ties together for making retaining walls (today's helpful suggestion).
 
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Interesting, there’s a contradictory article regarding crown importance I just read on another thread here recently. Was pretty good testing but still don’t make sense.

Some stuff seems to stay around, like advice to avoid cleaning rifles from muzzle and promotion of 11 degree crowns. Lots of stuff to read but most of it non-documented making a shooter's personal observations and records more believable.
 
By my tedious long term attention to detail including actual shooting results and exacting periodic inspections a reasonable idea of barrel life might be made - I have a .22-.250 that is still producing 1 inch groups @ 100 after 3000 and for practical use that is good enough to kill any rodent up to 400 yards that lives on this planet. I clean it after each session or 50 rounds and stop shooting before fingers get stuck on the barrel (hot frying pan effect). Should I be able to extrapolate barrel life longevity analysis to selection of lottery winning numbers lots of money could be harvested! Some stainless barrels that look ratty inside are good for more than pinning rail-road ties together for making retaining walls (today's helpful suggestion).
Well seems like you have everything figured out . I'm glad . Some of us mortals need a lifetime of hard work to acquire the knowledge. I guess I'm lucky to have your attention to detail versus my 35 + yrs of smithing , ill just rely on you or get my fortune cookie .
 

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