Sierra Match and general advice

[270WinDude]

I can probably answer most of this myself and through testing but I'd like to hear what's working for other people in regards to seating depth for matchkings.

I recently got into the sport. I did 1 initial "incremental charge" test with 140vld and rl-22 and 2 with sierra 135match and imr4350 and h4831sc. I made a mistake and the matchkings were .03 off the lands and the vlds were also .03 back instead of intended .02. Once I got the charge tuned I was going to play with seating depth. For my second round I decided to break consistency and I set the vld at .02 and the matchking at .01, I'm hoping this doesn't mess up the findings from the first test. The VLDs on average performed a bit better and roughly same velocity. vlds are 140 and matchkings are 135gr, for a 270win 24' bbl. I have a mobile reloading station so hopefully can get it figured out next time I head out.

 

[uncle-buck]

Some people prefer to set seating depth first and then charge weight. Others prefer to set charge weight first and then adjust seating depth.

 

[270WinDude]

Some people prefer to set seating depth first and then charge weight. Others prefer to set charge weight first and then adjust seating depth.

Okay thank you. So it's a preference thing, good to know. This is probably really novice questioning and I don't know exactly what to ask. I see the argument for depth first as you are figuring out what that particular bullet shoots good at but I kind of worry I will do all this charge weight optimizing/testing only to find out that it will become null if I change the seating depth. I chose to do charge first because I hear a lot of people talking about hitting accuracy "nodes" with their ammunition which makes me think that I could "tune" seating depth with a certain charge but if it's not on a "node" then I'd only be able to get the best seating depth for an already non-optimized charge weight. I think I'm going to be learning a lot this weekend as I built a mobile reloading station that is coming out with me this weekend. I'm most excited to see how my final optimized load (bullet/powder) combo will vary between various brass, I've got Norma, Winchester, and Hornady.

 

[#40Fan]

I am no expert, but this how I see it.

Pick a seating depth and run a charge weight test, whatever the type you choose is up to you. This will tell you what the overall gun likes with concern to velocity and harmonics. Once you find that group with a certain powder charge, using a chronograph is best to know where that speed node is. Now you can start adjusting seating depth or different primers while trying to keep in that speed node.

 

[270WinDude]

I am no expert, but this how I see it.

Pick a seating depth and run a charge weight test, whatever the type you choose is up to you. This will tell you what the overall gun likes with concern to velocity and harmonics. Once you find that group with a certain powder charge, using a chronograph is best to know where that speed node is. Now you can start adjusting seating depth or different primers while trying to keep in that speed node.

That sounds about like my thinking as well. I'm hoping that with experience I'll get to the point where I can just look at a bullet and tell whether its a secant or tangent or hybrid and be able to guess what seating depth will be a good starting point. I've got a dummy round that I lightly tightened the neck on and I'll adjust it's seating depth with my hand and put it in and measure every time documenting each time it falls out until it gets stuck. Then I verify again and measure round, calling that my ogive distance.

 

[#40Fan]

You should PM your address. I have some stuff I could send you to help get accurate measurements.

 

[270WinDude]

You should PM your address. I have some stuff I could send you to help get accurate measurements.

Thank you. I sent a PM. I got a different measurement again last night with that method. I think load development is going on hold for me until I get better at shooting and the equipment I want, will just use my 1 good load for now. Today I went out and got off about 45 rounds with subpar results, basically a complete waste. Groups were roughly 1.5-3.3' with some fliers occasionally stretching out to about 4.5'. I was shooting with parents so I didn't get to setup as OCD as normal and was shooting at 160+ish instead of my exact 100 but those are just excuses. Trigger pulling/follow through was atrocious! Only 1 group under an inch. Strange coincidence? but the charge that gave me my best (.214) last time was the only one under 2 inches today at .89ctc.

 

[#40Fan]

That is the bad thing about testing out loads. If not in the Zone and not being rushed, you might as well be dumping the powder on the ground and throwing the bullets at the target.

 

[Bart B.]

What rifle and barrel are you using?

Are you shouldering the rifle or shooting it free recoil?

How much is the trigger pull weight?

Have you ever used someone's super accurate rifle and ammo to assess your marksmanship skills if you're shouldering hand held rifles? I did and boy howdy, was I embarrased!!! Then I was shown how to "accurize" or "match condition" me. Us humans are not created equal in that regard but most of us can get better.

 

[270WinDude]

What rifle and barrel are you using?

Are you shouldering the rifle or shooting it free recoil?

How much is the trigger pull weight?

Have you ever used someone's super accurate rifle and ammo to assess your marksmanship skills if you're shouldering hand held rifles? I did and boy howdy, was I embarrased!!! Then I was shown how to "accurize" or "match condition" me. Us humans are not created equal in that regard but most of us can get better.

I know my rest isn't good but worked for airguns. I think I'm buying a good front and rear rest here soon. I put my bi-pod onto a folding little food tray table with a piece of plastic under the bipod so in theory could slide back smooth(don't work) and rest the pistol grip on a tri-pod that I can adjust, and keep the rifle snug to my shoulder. I think the problem is: 1) poor stable table and rifle alignment 2) Jerking big time/anticipating shot 3) Shooting style creates inconsistency/every time I shoot I'm in different position.

I have a bergara b-14 hunter 270win 24' bbl 1-10 twist. The stock feels cool but is very flimsy and needs to be upgraded since my main goal is to use this 270 for learning accurate shooting for most part. I choose bergara because their barrels are suppose to be comparable to Shilen and their actions are suppose to be made to extremely tight tolerances and are essentially exact clones to a rem700 which opens door to aftermarket everything. So I figured I'd get something like a r700 but with better barrel. I've only ever shot a centerfire in the Army and I sucked back then but also had 20-50 vision and wasn't wearing glasses. I can shoot my 12fpe spring-piston airgun into 1 hole groups at 10-15 yard and under half inch all day at 50, which is pretty good. That did take many all-day practice sessions to get that good and find a gun/pellet combo capable of it.
Trigger pull on the gun is stock, I've always felt triggers mods are over rated/an excuse/doesn't matter, if a shooter is good then trigger doesn't matter. My opinion on this might change... but as stated, a better trigger probably wont stop me from jerking the dang thing when I pull it.

 

[Bart B.]

Trigger pull on the gun is stock, I've always felt triggers mods are over rated/an excuse/doesn't matter, if a shooter is good then trigger doesn't matter. My opinion on this might change... but as stated, a better trigger probably wont stop me from jerking the dang thing when I pull it

I think your opinion will change once you pass a few 20 round ball and dummy tests. An early objective in marksmanship is getting shots that hit where you call them. It's learned the fastest with accurate stuff. Good trigger use is essential.

I had a guy learning to shoot a 7.62 match Garands' 4.5 pound triggers but he claimed the rifle was not accurate. I suggested he sling up in prone on the 600 yard line, aim then I would pinch the trigger off using my thumb and index finger. After 2 sighters, his next ten shots with him holding and me pinching rounds off when his hold was still, the score was 100-6X. He asked if he should shoot more, I said yes, but with another team mate giving him ball and dummy rounds. He soon became my rookie team's best shooter.

 

[270WinDude]

I think your opinion will change once you pass a few 20 round ball and dummy tests. An early objective in marksmanship is getting shots that hit where you call them. It's learned the fastest with accurate stuff. Good trigger use is essential.

I had a guy learning to shoot a 7.62 match Garands' 4.5 pound triggers but he claimed the rifle was not accurate. I suggested he sling up in prone on the 600 yard line, aim then I would pinch the trigger off using my thumb and index finger. After 2 sighters, his next ten shots with him holding and me pinching rounds off when his hold was still, the score was 100-6X. He asked if he should shoot more, I said yes, but with another team mate giving him ball and dummy rounds. He soon became my rookie team's best shooter.

Makes total sense about faster learning with an accurate gun. You can see easier what you need to work on. I went to a local match recently and got to shoot someones Savage Target acutrigger and that sucker was light. It's as if the air pressure created from bringing my finger upto the trigger is what set it off. It was a 6br and honestly after I fired I wasn't sure what happened, I literally could not tell if it shot or not. Felt a bit different then my gun... I think after that shot, combined with the logic behind what you mention with that guy holding and you pinching off the shots, I can see now the point for a good trigger.

 

[Homerange]

Makes total sense about faster learning with an accurate gun. You can see easier what you need to work on. I went to a local match recently and got to shoot someones Savage Target acutrigger and that sucker was light. It's as if the air pressure created from bringing my finger upto the trigger is what set it off. It was a 6br and honestly after I fired I wasn't sure what happened, I literally could not tell if it shot or not. Felt a bit different then my gun... I think after that shot, combined with the logic behind what you mention with that guy holding and you pinching off the shots, I can see now the point for a good trigger.

Just catching up with your escapades and there's four things going on here you need to address.
Recoil management, yes I've mentioned this to you before !
Why ? Because it effects how you hold the rifle and therein effects trigger control too.
Get that trigger under 3lbs too if you want any chance of shooting acceptable groups.
$2 fishing spring scale is all you need to make adjustments.
Then with better recoil management you learn that you don't have to hold the pistol grip in a strangle-hold so you'll find trigger control is improved and you'll easily manage a much lighter trigger as well.
Once you have all these little things sorted around recoil the body learns to 'go with it' rather that try to resist recoil and accuracy will improve dramatically.
Ditch the tray and also hold the stock fore-end to help manage the recoil better.
You'll shoot better off bags than the average bipod too.
Shooting a sporter 270 cross-arm or fist under the butt is gunna have it dancing all over the place and beat you up some.

Lastly better optics with good magnification will allow you to hold more precisely and see errors at shot release which plainly then shows it's either you or the ammo.
One other piece of advice for shooting groups; don't check to see shot falls, shoot the whole group and then worry about where they landed.

Been there and done all this and now when developing loads the first thing that goes on any of my rifles is my range scope and that's NOT a hunting scope.

All these little things will improve your shooting will also add to a more pleasurable experience and reduce fatigue, the shooters enemy !
[end lecture/]

 

[270WinDude]

Just catching up with your escapades and there's four things going on here you need to address.
Recoil management, yes I've mentioned this to you before !
Why ? Because it effects how you hold the rifle and therein effects trigger control too.
Get that trigger under 3lbs too if you want any chance of shooting acceptable groups.
$2 fishing spring scale is all you need to make adjustments.
Then with better recoil management you learn that you don't have to hold the pistol grip in a strangle-hold so you'll find trigger control is improved and you'll easily manage a much lighter trigger as well.
Once you have all these little things sorted around recoil the body learns to 'go with it' rather that try to resist recoil and accuracy will improve dramatically.
Ditch the tray and also hold the stock fore-end to help manage the recoil better.
You'll shoot better off bags than the average bipod too.
Shooting a sporter 270 cross-arm or fist under the butt is gunna have it dancing all over the place and beat you up some.

Lastly better optics with good magnification will allow you to hold more precisely and see errors at shot release which plainly then shows it's either you or the ammo.
One other piece of advice for shooting groups; don't check to see shot falls, shoot the whole group and then worry about where they landed.

Been there and done all this and now when developing loads the first thing that goes on any of my rifles is my range scope and that's NOT a hunting scope.

All these little things will improve your shooting will also add to a more pleasurable experience and reduce fatigue, the shooters enemy !
[end lecture/]

Thank you. I didn't fully explain how I'm shooting I think, yet it seems like you guessed exactly what I'm doing lol When I put my non trigger hand like you mentioned that sucker kicks pretty good. Also I do anticipate and try fighting back at the recoil pretty bad. It will take getting used to putting it on the fore end. I plan on getting a heavier wooden stock at some point. I will also ditch the cheap bi-pod and use bags next time I'm out. I have my eye on a caldwell firecontrol that I got to use at the local match I went to but not sure about using it with my cannon (compared to the 6br I shot). It's a hunting rifle by DNA but I want to treat it like a target or fclass gun for my training. A scope is up on my priority and have learned a little on them recently so that's on my list. This weekend I will be adjusting the trigger and probably building a bench, I took a rough height measurement of the ones at the club. All good points, will work on implementation over next several outings/weeks.

 

[Rsadams]

SMK don't mind a longer jump...

 

[Homerange]

Thank you. I didn't fully explain how I'm shooting I think, yet it seems like you guessed exactly what I'm doing lol When I put my non trigger hand like you mentioned that sucker kicks pretty good. Also I do anticipate and try fighting back at the recoil pretty bad. It will take getting used to putting it on the fore end. I plan on getting a heavier wooden stock at some point. I will also ditch the cheap bi-pod and use bags next time I'm out. I have my eye on a caldwell firecontrol that I got to use at the local match I went to but not sure about using it with my cannon (compared to the 6br I shot). It's a hunting rifle by DNA but I want to treat it like a target or fclass gun for my training. A scope is up on my priority and have learned a little on them recently so that's on my list. This weekend I will be adjusting the trigger and probably building a bench, I took a rough height measurement of the ones at the club. All good points, will work on implementation over next several outings/weeks.

Great, you seem to be getting your head into the right space.
Recoil is what I really suffered with until I learnt about the tools/ways to manage it and just how much it impacts on the average shooters results, especially at the bench where we're trying to shoot our best.
Very unlike offhand shots in the bush where of the many dozens of deer I've downed, recoil is never felt !

I know some good shoots that use my range and one in particular is a slight weedy sort of a guy that shoots amazingly well with gruntier calibers, so much so I asked how he does it.
His reply was just to shoot and shoot.
I know only too well that if a rifle hurts you or nears the point where it will, this practice would be counterproductive if you weren't doing the basic things correctly but he was indeed correct as the body's muscle memory becomes trained for/to going with recoil rather than fighting against it.
You never get to experience this with 'soft' rifles but if you're shooting lots the body does learn to absorb recoil better rather than trying to resist it.
However this skill development in one's ability can be shortcut by just sissy bagging up which increases confidence more quickly and lets you go into the field with more confidence in your own ability.
In short, don't let it kick you around on the bench !

I credit a 223 for teaching me how to shoot and then applying what I'd learnt to shoot the larger calibers much better.