Weighing primers testing results ANYONE DOING IT ???

[retired]

no what i said was that if you are not TESTING at 600/1000 YARDS TO BENCHREST accuracy with quality guns, it is all a waste of time.
it is a small variable, that CAN be seen in competition rifles at long range.

Are you saying you sort primers by weight and the difference is so small the signal gets lost in the noise of other variables?

CW

 

[butchlambert]

You would gain way more spending trigger time than using up components weighing primers. I guess stuff like this tickles some folks ribs moreso than quality trigger time.

 

[retired]

no trigger time becomes QUALITY time, when all the small details are taken care of.
come on up to montana for the 1000 yd nationals and show us how your theory works.

You would gain way more spending trigger time than using up components weighing primers. I guess stuff like this tickles some folks ribs moreso than quality trigger time.

 

[butchlambert]

no trigger time becomes QUALITY time, when all the small details are taken care of.
come on up to montana for the 1000 yd nationals and show us how your theory works.

I know this is not what you want to hear,but 2250post a year leaves less trigger time.You can work on all the things, but if you don't shoot, you don't win.

 

[Dusty Stevens]

Anvils pop out easy enough with a pocket knife so they can be weighed to see if they are the same. Theyre stamped so i figure theyre all spot on. The cups are stamped from a sheet so id bet they are spot on as well. Also easy to test- so if somebody weighed those 2 components, say 50 each we’d have data to see if its worth it or if they vary much its not.

 

[jr600yd]

Geeezzzeeee...... I thought my problem was correctly reading the wind. Now it’s primers?????

 

[Dusty Stevens]

Geeezzzeeee...... I thought my problem was correctly reading the wind. Now it’s primers?????

If you dont put out wind flags the wind is not an issue from what ive read.

 

[retired]

So the bottom line,
you have an OPINION,
but no FACTS.
SEE MY NAME. i am retired, i have time to shoot, build rifles, shoot pistols, weigh primers, work on a car or two and still post here.
The difference is my input is based on SHOOTING, not selling.
You tap danced around the the request...show up and shoot.

I know this is not what you want to hear,but 2250post a year leaves less trigger time.You can work on all the things, but if you don't shoot, you don't win.

 

[retired]

LONG RANGE RULES do not allow flags where the bullets fly.

If you dont put out wind flags the wind is not an issue from what ive read.

 

[Ned Ludd]

Anvils pop out easy enough with a pocket knife so they can be weighed to see if they are the same. Theyre stamped so i figure theyre all spot on. The cups are stamped from a sheet so id bet they are spot on as well. Also easy to test- so if somebody weighed those 2 components, say 50 each we’d have data to see if its worth it or if they vary much its not.

Figuring they're all "spot on" because they're stamped is simply guessing. Why even waste the effort when you can just make up whatever you want and end up with an answer that holds the same level of confidence? The real questions here are what fraction of the total weight of an unfired primer does the weight of the priming compound represent, and how much do the weights of the remaining constituents (anvil + cup) vary.

It's simple statistics...if the mean weight of priming compound is less than or equal to the weight variance of the anvil + cup, then weighing primers is not going to effectively allow useful sorting for differing amounts of priming compound, and therefore brisance/velocity. If the mean weight of priming compound is significantly greater than the weight variance of the anvil + cup, then weight sorting primers has a good chance of working. The only way to generate an answer that carries any weight in terms of confidence is to weigh the individual components as I described and do the statistical analysis. Assumptions and guessing won't cut it if you want a scientifically definitive answer.

For all I know, people may have already carried out these analyses with statistically relevant sample sizes, although I have never personally seen the results posted anywhere. However, question of whether primers can be sorted by weight seems analogous to the question of whether brass volume can be determined by weighing cases, something I have analyzed on a regular basis. The answer there is that you can usually improve overall case volume consistency (as compared to unsorted cases) by weighing brass. However, there will always be a few outliers in a weight sort where the actual measured case volume lies well off the trend line of case weight vs. case volume, primarily due to differences in the extractor groove and base to shoulder dimensions, which alter either case volume or weight without affecting the other. Even with the outliers, sorting cases by weight will probably improve overall case volume consistency as compared to doing nothing at all.

Although I don't know the mean total weight or weight variance of anvil + cup, or the relative weight of priming compound in various brands of primers, I suspect the same might also be true. But that is merely my suspicion; the only way to be certain is to actually weigh enough of the damn things to get statistically significant values. I have been aware of the practice of weight sorting of primers for this purpose for some time. Until now, I have studiously avoided paying any attention to to this practice, simply because of the effort involved to really analyze it properly. Unfortunately, this thread has now brought it to the forefront in my mind and I may not be able to sleep well until the question has been answered to my satisfaction. So I might have to end up taking a swing at answering it after all. I knew this place was bad influence .

 

[Dusty Stevens]

Figuring they're all "spot on" because they're stamped is simply guessing. Why even waste the effort when you can just make up whatever you want and end up with an answer that holds the same level of confidence? The real questions here are what fraction of the total weight of an unfired primer does the weight of the priming compound represent, and how much do the weights of the remaining constituents (anvil + cup) vary.

It's simple statistics...if the mean weight of priming compound is less than or equal to the weight variance of the anvil + cup, then weighing primers is not going to effectively allow useful sorting for differing amounts of priming compound, and therefore brisance/velocity. If the mean weight of priming compound is significantly greater than the weight variance of the anvil + cup, then weight sorting primers has a good chance of working. The only way to generate an answer that carries any weight in terms of confidence is to weigh the individual components as I described and do the statistical analysis. Assumptions and guessing won't cut it if you want a scientifically definitive answer.

For all I know, people may have already carried out these analyses with statistically relevant sample sizes, although I have never personally seen the results posted anywhere. However, question of whether primers can be sorted by weight seems analogous to the question of whether brass volume can be determined by weighing cases, something I have analyzed on a regular basis. The answer there is that you can usually improve overall case volume consistency (as compared to unsorted cases) by weighing brass. However, there will always be a few outliers in a weight sort where the actual measured case volume lies well off the trend line of case weight vs. case volume, primarily due to differences in the extractor groove and base to shoulder dimensions, which alter either case volume or weight without affecting the other. Even with the outliers, sorting cases by weight will probably improve overall case volume consistency as compared to doing nothing at all.

Although I don't know the mean total weight or weight variance of anvil + cup, or the relative weight of priming compound in various brands of primers, I suspect the same might also be true. But that is merely my suspicion; the only way to be certain is to actually weigh enough of the damn things to get statistically significant values. I have been aware of the practice of weight sorting of primers for this purpose for some time. Until now, I have studiously avoided paying any attention to to this practice, simply because of the effort involved to really analyze it properly. Unfortunately, this thread has now brought it to the forefront in my mind and I may not be able to sleep well until the question has been answered to my satisfaction. So I might have to end up taking a swing at answering it after all. I knew this place was bad influence .

Like i said in way less words- the anvils are easy to pop out and weigh. People are figuring the anvils and cups are exactly the same and theyre weight sorting the compound.

 

[Bart B.]

However, question of whether primers can be sorted by weight seems analogous to the question of whether brass volume can be determined by weighing cases, something I have analyzed on a regular basis.

I don't think case volume can be precise across several unless their outside dimensions are all the same. The more out of round cases are, the less volume they have. A circle has more area than an ellipse with the same circumference.

If they're all into a full length sizing die when water fills them to their mouth, that puts their outside dimensions very consistent across all cases. When fired and at peak pressure, their outside dimensions will pretty well equal that of the chamber and case volume is then largest.

I think sorting cases to lots of 1% weight spread is close enough.

 

[Medic505]

2250post a year

Does make him an "Internet High Master"

 

[Ned Ludd]

Like i said in way less words- the anvils are easy to pop out and weigh. People are figuring the anvils and cups are exactly the same and theyre weight sorting the compound.

And you've actually seen raw data for a statistically relevant population? Good for you if you have. I haven't. However, I have seen this topic debated periodically on various internet shooting forums where somehow the relevant data always seems to be missing, which makes me a bit skeptical. I have no doubt that any primer manufacturer has more data on this than you or I could shake a stick at. Whether or not it's proprietary or is freely available is another story. Nonetheless, this thread has given me the motivation to test it for myself and I'll be happy to post the results here for others to draw their own conclusions and not simply assume that it works because someone else said so.

 

[Dusty Stevens]

And you've actually seen raw data for a statistically relevant population? Good for you if you have. I haven't. However, I have seen this topic debated periodically on various internet shooting forums where somehow the relevant data always seems to be missing, which makes me a bit skeptical. I have no doubt that any primer manufacturer has more data on this than you or I could shake a stick at. Whether or not it's proprietary or is freely available is another story. Nonetheless, this thread has given me the motivation to test it for myself and I'll be happy to post the results here for others to draw their own conclusions and not simply assume that it works because someone else said so.

Youve been quoting me when ive never weighed a primer in my life! Ive never said it works i just threw it out there as to why they weigh primers and the reasoning behind it- they figure the anvils and cups weigh the same since its a stamping and the only variance could be the compound which i stated its easy enough to pop out the anvils and weigh 50 of them. If the anvils have a weight variance then weighing primers is a lost cause because you wont know if its the compound or anvil youre sorting.

 

[Ned Ludd]

Youve been quoting me when ive never weighed a primer in my life! Ive never said it works i just threw it out there as to why they weigh primers and the reasoning behind it- they figure the anvils and cups weigh the same since its a stamping and the only variance could be the compound which i stated its easy enough to pop out the anvils and weigh 50 of them. If the anvils have a weight variance then weighing primers is a lost cause because you wont know if its the compound or anvil youre sorting.

I originally quoted you because you seemed to believe that the anvil and cup weights must be uniform because they're stamped. Maybe they are, maybe they're not. I'm simply not willing to make that assumption just because the anvils and cups are manufactured by some particular process, or because some people might use the weight sorting approach and claim it works. When the usefulness of sorting primers by weight depends largely, if not entirely, on whether the amount of primer compound they contain can be accurately determined by subtractive weight measurements, it seems pretty obvious that one either needs to provide their own data, or thoroughly analyze a representative data set provided by someone else. Because I have yet to see any definitive data one way or the other, I'll carry out the determination myself and will be happy to share the findings with anyone here that is interested.

 

[Mozella]

I thought the idea of weighing primers was just a joke. But, judging from how serious some members of this forum are, it looks like I'm going to have to step up my reloading procedure.

I would think to get any meaningful results from weighing primers one would need to dig deeper than simply weighing the intact primers. I'm going to try separating the several components and weighing them individually. The weights of the anvil, the cup, and the pressure-sensitive ignition compound need to be separated because, it seems to me, that the ignition compound is the component most likely to effect group size.

In other words, if the anvils and ignition compound of a group of primers all weigh the same and only the cup weight varies, then I suspect performance differences would be small. On the other hand, if all the anvils and cups are identical, but there are significant variations in the weight (amount) of the ignition compound, then it makes sense that this factor could have an effect on group size.

So my project between now and next Spring is to disassemble 10,000 primers and weigh the three major components. Then load these primers into 10,000 identical rounds and test them at 1000 yards on a windless day.

Don't worry, when working on the primers I'll dial nine and one on my phone so that if anything goes wrong, I only have to dial one more number.

This will take some time, of course, but expect me to publish the results no later than April first, 2019.

 

[Titan]

I quoted you because you seem to believe that the anvil and cup weights must be uniform because they're stamped. I'm not willing to make that assumption just because the anvils and cups are manufactured by some particular process, or because some people use the weight sorting approach and claim it works. When the usefulness of sorting primers by weight depends largely, if not entirely, on whether the amount of primer compound can be accurately determined by subtractive weight measurements, it seems pretty obvious that one either needs to provide their own data, or thoroughly analyze a representative data set provided by someone else. Maybe the cup and anvil weights are uniform, maybe they're not. I have yet to see any definitive data one way or the other. For that reason, I'll make the determinations for myself and will be happy to share the findings with anyone here that is interested.

Check this study out you may find it interesting to your own effort. I found the authors observations with Federal 210m mirror my own finding concerning ignitable primer mass I tested Wolf Large rifle and Fed 210s (approximately 30-35mg of a 350mg un-fired primer). The author also provides data concerning the relationship of total mass to peak pressure and ignitable mass to peak pressure. I am interested in your findings and methodology of testing if you can to share your results.

Link:
http://www.btgresearch.org/High-speed measurement of rifle primer blast waves.pdf

 

[Ned Ludd]

Thanks for posting that, I'll read through it carefully. I'll post the results here once I have them and I will be sure to notify you when I do.

 

[R.Morehouse]

I thought the idea of weighing primers was just a joke. But, judging from how serious some members of this forum are, it looks like I'm going to have to step up my reloading procedure.

I would think to get any meaningful results from weighing primers one would need to dig deeper than simply weighing the intact primers. I'm going to try separating the several components and weighing them individually. The weights of the anvil, the cup, and the pressure-sensitive ignition compound need to be separated because, it seems to me, that the ignition compound is the component most likely to effect group size.

In other words, if the anvils and ignition compound of a group of primers all weigh the same and only the cup weight varies, then I suspect performance differences would be small. On the other hand, if all the anvils and cups are identical, but there are significant variations in the weight (amount) of the ignition compound, then it makes sense that this factor could have an effect on group size.

So my project between now and next Spring is to disassemble 10,000 primers and weigh the three major components. Then load these primers into 10,000 identical rounds and test them at 1000 yards on a windless day.

Don't worry, when working on the primers I'll dial nine and one on my phone so that if anything goes wrong, I only have to dial one more number.

This will take some time, of course, but expect me to publish the results no later than April first, 2019.

Thank You Sir For Your Dedication To Our Fine Sport............

Best Regards
Rick