Savage Lettering & headspace

[Steve Ladino]

An issue about lettering and headspace as it regards replacing a circa 90's Savage short action small shank barrel with a circa 2015 or so thereabouts small shank barrel. I know what's involved to get the lettering at the 9 o'clock position if it isn't there when the headspace is correctly set for the replacement Savage take off barrel.

Question is for those who have done the service of replacing, lets say a worn out 22-250 Savage factory barrel with an unfired Savage factory take off 22-250 barrel. "How often do you find the lettering to be in the 9 o'clock location ( like new ) once the Savage unfired barrel has been tried for proper headspace? " I mean here before any chamber shortening and rechambering is done. Thanks!

 

[Ggmac]

Why worry ? It should be at least partially visible if for cal marking .
In my op , not worth the cost to ' make as new '

 

[Rstrick0352]

I’ve done several like you’re saying and have never had the barrel’s stamping fall into the correct place. Aesthetically it’s not an issue to me, I always just trust the headspace gage and go from there.

 

[Steve Ladino]

Why worry ? It should be at least partially visible if for cal marking .
In my op , not worth the cost to ' make as new '

I agree that it's not a worry. There is a pertinent issue in that for competition qualification in lets say Factory class anyone buying a factory take off for factory replacement might be unaware that the lettering will not be at 9 o'clock because of different tolerances. So they get the barrel installed and pay for the fitting and end up with a custom cut chamber which would put them into a custom class. Something they likely hadn't planned on (or did) unless the GS informs them of it in the first place.
I have several Savage barrels for a small shank action and none of them put the lettering at 9 o'clock. Was just looking for a little more confirmation about the alignment / misalignment question...….thanks.

 

[Steve Ladino]

I’ve done several like you’re saying and have never have the barrel’s stamping fall into the correct place. Aesthetically it’s not an issue to me, I always just trust the headspace gage and go from them.

I agree

 

[hoz53]

I agree that it's not a worry. There is a pertinent issue in that for competition qualification in lets say Factory class anyone buying a factory take off for factory replacement might be unaware that the lettering will not be at 9 o'clock because of different tolerances. So they get the barrel installed and pay for the fitting and end up with a custom cut chamber which would put them into a custom class. Something they likely hadn't planned on (or did) unless the GS informs them of it in the first place.
I have several Savage barrels for a small shank action and none of them put the lettering at 9 o'clock. Was just looking for a little more confirmation about the alignment / misalignment question...….thanks.

thats interesting i didnt think of that. so really if your not shooting the original barrel you probably wont be able to shoot in factory class even if the replacement is another factory barrel. im just guessing many of the sav barrels are changed by there owners who probably wouldnt have a very big sample.

 

[KRP]

I agree that it's not a worry. There is a pertinent issue in that for competition qualification in lets say Factory class anyone buying a factory take off for factory replacement might be unaware that the lettering will not be at 9 o'clock because of different tolerances. So they get the barrel installed and pay for the fitting and end up with a custom cut chamber which would put them into a custom class. Something they likely hadn't planned on (or did) unless the GS informs them of it in the first place.
I have several Savage barrels for a small shank action and none of them put the lettering at 9 o'clock. Was just looking for a little more confirmation about the alignment / misalignment question...….thanks.

So factory class requires the barrel markings at 9 o'clock? If headspace was close with the markings at 9 o'clock I'd just fireform brass and adjust my dies.

 

[Steve Ladino]

So factory class requires the barrel markings at 9 o'clock? If headspace was close with the markings at 9 o'clock I'd just fireform brass and adjust my dies.

The issue as I see it is that if a person doesn't feel comfortable with lettering wherever it falls at some point from 1 to360 degrees and wants it at 9 o'clock then chamber work is necessary to get it there which would put that factory rifle into a custom class because the factory chamber/throat/ lead angle etc. is no longer a factory product.

 

[Steve Ladino]

thats interesting i didnt think of that. so really if your not shooting the original barrel you probably wont be able to shoot in factory class even if the replacement is another factory barrel. im just guessing many of the sav barrels are changed by there owners who probably wouldnt have a very big sample.

Hoz. I'm saying that you can change the barrel with another factory barrel but if you want the lettering of a replacement barrel to be at 9 o'clock and chamber work is necessary to get it there then it no longer is a factory class rifle. If the lettering is accepted wherever it falls and no chamber work is done then the rifle would still be considered a factory class allowed gun.

 

[Ggmac]

Interesting. But that would require a factory letter or sales ticket for every rifle that is in the correct timing . Thinking again it would require a sales ticket for every rifle . If it's not timed correctly then it's not factory , or is it ? Then if it is correctly timed , then it may have been altered ? Interesting point . I don't think it'll get to that point , will it ?
Hmmm.

 

[Steve Ladino]

So factory class requires the barrel markings at 9 o'clock? If headspace was close with the markings at 9 o'clock I'd just fireform brass and adjust my dies.

Yes you can do that but only safely to a point. Also back to an owner , who may feel uncomfortable and might worry about resale value with non factory alignment of lettering.

 

[Steve Ladino]

Interesting. But that would require a factory letter or sales ticket for every rifle that is in the correct timing . Thinking again it would require a sales ticket for every rifle . If it's not timed correctly then it's not factory , or is it ? Then if it is correctly timed , then it may have been altered ? Interesting point . I don't think it'll get to that point , will it ?
Hmmm.

Because the predominant opinion is that the lettering on a replacement brl. will not align at 9 o'clock then we can assume that custom work was done to get it there, which would disallow the rifle for factory class. If "Savage Firearms" installs a new barrel then it is still a factory class allowed rifle whereas if a GS does it then it would not be allowed in Fac. class. I'm thinking "Savage" would require a purchase of their barrel ($400.00) for a LRPV .223 last I checked which is vastly more expensive than what we see on ACC Shooter. So in order to get the original position most guys would buy from ACC Shooter and find a local GS to do the install. Now the options are 9 o'clock or where ever it falls according to how it headspaces. One choice allows the rifle in Fac. class the other does not.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

If this gun is intended to be shot in competition, do the rules allow for any barrel replacement?

UBR Factory class for example, specifically disallows a barrel swap unless done at the mfg and a letter to prove it, from the maker. Any signs of a barrel swap not done by the maker puts the gun into the next higher class.

 

[hoz53]

Because the predominant opinion is that the lettering on a replacement brl. will not align at 9 o'clock then we can assume that custom work was done to get it there, which would disallow the rifle for factory class. If "Savage Firearms" installs a new barrel then it is still a factory class allowed rifle whereas if a GS does it then it would not be allowed in Fac. class. I'm thinking "Savage" would require a purchase of their barrel ($400.00) for a LRPV .223 last I checked which is vastly more expensive than what we see on ACC Shooter. So in order to get the original position most guys would buy from ACC Shooter and find a local GS to do the install. Now the options are 9 o'clock or where ever it falls according to how it headspaces. One choice allows the rifle in Fac. class the other does not.

yes i think savage told me 400 for an lrpv barrel and they wont even sell one- the work has to be done by them. id just sell the rifle and buy a new one and see if i hit the accuracy lottery. anyway to me the question is will these matches that shoot factory class let you have a rifle where the writing isnt timed right which means you replaced the barrel? if so most competitors wont care where the engraving is if the rifle shoots will they?
i think the factory class should be with the original barrel only or it kind of defeats the purpose of the factory class.

 

[Ggmac]

Because the predominant opinion is that the lettering on a replacement brl. will not align at 9 o'clock then we can assume that custom work was done to get it there, which would disallow the rifle for factory class. If "Savage Firearms" installs a new barrel then it is still a factory class allowed rifle whereas if a GS does it then it would not be allowed in Fac. class. I'm thinking "Savage" would require a purchase of their barrel ($400.00) for a LRPV .223 last I checked which is vastly more expensive than what we see on ACC Shooter. So in order to get the original position most guys would buy from ACC Shooter and find a local GS to do the install. Now the options are 9 o'clock or where ever it falls according to how it headspaces. One choice allows the rifle in Fac. class the other does not.

Wait , if the lettering does line up THEN the barrel has had some custom chambering , just to make it line up . If it's off then only the barrel has been replaced without custom work . That's what I'm trying to say . If it looks factory , then some costume cutting has been done OR it's a factory set up , hence the need for the sales receipts.
In the hundreds of savage barrels I've replaced , I've always just assumed the customer was picky because he wanted the barrels to look factory , meaning timing the roll marks . Now I wonder ?

 

[Steve Ladino]

Wait , if the lettering does line up THEN the barrel has had some custom chambering , just to make it line up . If it's off then only the barrel has been replaced without custom work . That's what I'm trying to say . If it looks factory , then some costume cutting has been done OR it's a factory set up , hence the need for the sales receipts.
In the hundreds of savage barrels I've replaced , I've always just assumed the customer was picky because he wanted the barrels to look factory , meaning timing the roll marks . Now I wonder ?

YES

 

[Steve Ladino]

yes i think savage told me 400 for an lrpv barrel and they wont even sell one- the work has to be done by them. id just sell the rifle and buy a new one and see if i hit the accuracy lottery. anyway to me the question is will these matches that shoot factory class let you have a rifle where the writing isnt timed right which means you replaced the barrel? if so most competitors wont care where the engraving is if the rifle shoots will they?
i think the factory class should be with the original barrel only or it kind of defeats the purpose of the factory class.

I agree most comps. wont mind the offset. But in the competitive game the temptation to buy a cheap ( New take off ) and have it custom chambered and long throated ie; (.223 ) for the 80's even 90's might be happening to get an advantage. I shoot with some fellas weekly, 6 + months a year in a factory varmint class burning up 30 plus rounds. Granted the popular caliber is .223 and they last but they also wear out, understandably a guy might want to fresh up with a new Factory untouched chamber barrel, so it's allowed. This whole topic hinges upon an individuals Character and Their knowledge of barrel work. As it relates to a possible rule you could say that there isn't much difference between a custom chambered factory take off and a Factory rifle with a custom chambered Krieger...as the Savage barrels do shoot very well.

 

[Dusty Stevens]

If youre an honest guy, and a wrench has been turned on the barrel, it is no longer factory class. If you do work to it (which any gunsmith could do) to make the letters line up you are no longer in factory class. Just remember, any gunsmith can make it look factory but youre cheating. Try to keep a factory class honest. Theres very few factory classes anymore because everybody wants an advantage.

 

[Steve Ladino]

If this gun is intended to be shot in competition, do the rules allow for any barrel replacement?

UBR Factory class for example, specifically disallows a barrel swap unless done at the mfg and a letter to prove it, from the maker. Any signs of a barrel swap not done by the maker puts the gun into the next higher class.

Yes , local club rules vary and the Factory guns we see on the line are Savage and Tikka. As long as we are talking about barrels with un altered chambers, Savage Barrels as they are so easy to twist in, then they are allowed. Any other design of barrel attachment other than the nutted style would require chamber work and would not be allowed in my opinion. I'm not aligning with any particular ruling here but only stating examples of my thoughts about barrel swapping, predominantly the Type of barrels that use a lock down nut.

 

[hoz53]

I agree most comps. wont mind the offset. But in the competitive game the temptation to buy a cheap ( New take off ) and have it custom chambered and long throated ie; (.223 ) for the 80's even 90's might be happening to get an advantage. I shoot with some fellas weekly, 6 + months a year in a factory varmint class burning up 30 plus rounds. Granted the popular caliber is .223 and they last but they also wear out, understandably a guy might want to fresh up with a new Factory untouched chamber barrel, so it's allowed. This whole topic hinges upon an individuals Character and Their knowledge of barrel work. As it relates to a possible rule you could say that there isn't much difference between a custom chambered factory take off and a Factory rifle with a custom chambered Krieger...as the Savage barrels do shoot very well.

i think as soon as you allow any work on the barrel you open the door for anything happening and people trying to gain an advantage (cheating). i looked into these varmint type matches around here but i wont shoot the factory class for these reasons weve been talking about.