load testing are there newer more efficient methods now?

[dcali]

Ladders are simply a way of seeing the relative elevations of different charge weights. The number of shots per charge is totally arbitrary. Many people shoot one shot per charge. That's a waste if you ask me. Three makes much more sense. It's a good way to tune a rifle that you already know how to make shoot, and a lousy way to find a good load from scratch.

 

[ClassCat]

They say a "Picture is worth a thousand words"
Notes on Powder charges ,seating depths, Temperature,humidity,barometric pressure and dew point have been noted on ALL THESE BARRELS. Knowing how and where to look is the KEY !
I am tired of being DEMAGOGUED by some of these so called EXPERTS on this site, for their own lack of knowledge and self gratification. There are about 15 barrels missing. I gave those to the Varmint shooters. They say they are clearly the best they have ever had, but they are not competition level.

 

[retired]

alex, all the others,
a ladder helps find NODES, NOT LOADS.
GROUPS HELP FIND LOADS
BUT A LADDER IS NOT THREE SHOT GROUPS

a ladder leaning against your house has SINGLE steps going up.
you do not climb a ladder by stepping on each rung three times.
when was the last time you saw a ladder with THREE RUNGS FOR EACH STEP.
i admit it is a word game, but i grew up on english and understand the
difference between STEPS AND GROUPS.

Its exactly the same other than we shoot 3 per charge instead of one.

 

[retired]

bs..,ladders have single steps per elevation, and the guy that "invented" ladder shooting did it in single steps per elevation..the reason it is called LADDER.
there is nothing wrong with 3 shot groups...but it is NOT ladder.
confirms your lack of understanding of simple english.

Ladders are simply a way of seeing the relative elevations of different charge weights. The number of shots per charge is totally arbitrary. Many people shoot one shot per charge. That's a waste if you ask me. Three makes much more sense. It's a good way to tune a rifle that you already know how to make shoot, and a lousy way to find a good load from scratch.

 

[dolek]

Freakin troll ruins it every time ! Do you EVER leave the computer ?

 

[retired]

Creighton Audette came up with a method for developing precision rifle handloads that has been referred to by many names:

• Incremental Load Development Method (ILDM)
• The Ladder Test
• 20 Round String Method

Unfortunately many of Audette’s original articles aren’t very accessible, so I wanted to provide a few resources that help flesh out the method to load development he proposed. I recently tried it out, and although at first I admit I was a little skeptical … after seeing the real world results and some critical thinking about what we are really trying to uncover when doing load development, his method seems to make a lot of sense. At the very least it provides a great starting point for testing a particular bullet, powder, primer, case combination, and will likely save you some time, frustration, and barrel wear.

• Brief Overview of Audette’s Incremental Load Development Method (Excerpt from Precision Shooting Reloading Guide, Published 1998)
• Complete Deep-Dive Into Method & The Science Behind Why It Works by Randolph Constantine (Published in Precision Shooting

 

[CoyoteTan]

alex, all the others,
a ladder helps find NODES, NOT LOADS.
GROUPS HELP FIND LOADS
BUT A LADDER IS NOT THREE SHOT GROUPS

a ladder leaning against your house has SINGLE steps going up.
you do not climb a ladder by stepping on each rung three times.
when was the last time you saw a ladder with THREE RUNGS FOR EACH STEP.
i admit it is a word game, but i grew up on english and understand the
difference between STEPS AND GROUPS.

LoL, sometimes we are so into the game we make things more complicated than they really need to be

 

[dcali]

I see pedantry is alive and well.

 

[retired]

how many national titles do you have ?
i actually shoot in competition, not just sell stuff online.

I see pedantry is alive and well.

 

[ClassCat]

how many national titles do you have ?
i actually shoot in competition, not just sell stuff online.

You Have 1 , even a Blind squirrel can find a nut. When was the last time you even broke into the top 10 ?

I saw your name in the CACTUS You finished 152 out of 156. The 4 behind you were D Q or dropped out

 

[Evlshnngns]

With es/sd, how could you trust a one shot ladder? This is a good thread, keep it on target.

 

[rockwind1]

that guy jason sure made it look easy, i sorta have the time and i like learning new things. i think i will try it his way,,,,but the mirage where i am at at 1000 yds is pretty rough stuff. i wonder if that will throw off the results. plus wind flags over a 1000 yds must be tough to do

 

[dcali]

With es/sd, how could you trust a one shot ladder? This is a good thread, keep it on target.

It's an interesting question. I would propose that it depends on how big the groups are relative to the dispersion of those groups attributable to velocity variation/barrel vibration. A very accurate rifle showing a very large sensitivity to barrel vibration might be able to detect a PC node with one shot per step ladders. In practice, judging by the number of "I shot a ladder. Help me interpret it!" posts, this isn't happening for a lot of folks and people are sometimes trying to interpret random noise rather than solid data.

 

[memilanuk]

In practice, judging by the number of "I shot a ladder. Help me interpret it!" posts, this isn't happening for a lot of folks and people are sometimes trying to interpret random noise rather than solid data.

^ this.

Ladders can, and do work. Especially if you replicate the steps, and the results are repeatable. Done 'em, seen it. But sometimes you have to know when you're looking at meaningful data, and when you're looking at... crap.

 

[retired]

it is not the people, it is the gun in most cases.
the test is based on a quality known rifle.
shooting your third cousins grand dad's hunting rifle, not so much.
and yes a new less experienced shooter will likely need help.

It's an interesting question. I would propose that it depends on how big the groups are relative to the dispersion of those groups attributable to velocity variation/barrel vibration. A very accurate rifle showing a very large sensitivity to barrel vibration might be able to detect a PC node with one shot per step ladders. In practice, judging by the number of "I shot a ladder. Help me interpret it!" posts, this isn't happening for a lot of folks and people are sometimes trying to interpret random noise rather than solid data.

 

[BCBRAD]

Back to the OP, yesterday I loaded up 5 rounds of 6 Dasher, this was to test 105gn Berger Hybrids, with all the parameters, as closely as I can do it, inputted to QL tells me that 34.8gn of H4350 will produce 2903 ft/s, be on a node 1.0905 mS and have the progressive burn stop at max pressure, hallmark of an OCW load.
At 109 yards the 5 shot group was ~0.5 moa probably at bit less as I didn't do the conversion to 100 yards, any way it was a half inch.
The average velocity was 2922 ft/s, I was using the default burn rate of of 0.5130. I adjusted the burn rate to 0.5200, in this application the burn rate is a bit faster than the default.
Now I adjust the powder charge down to achieve 2903 ft/s, ended up with 34.54gn for 2903 ft/s.
Still have an OBT and OCW load.
The OCW is important to get a low ES (especially when all other mechanical tricks are done), this test string the ES was 9 ft/s. The brass was not weigh sorted or velocity sorted , that comes after many more rounds.

The rifle is a Tikka T3, #5 Benchmark, YoDave spring, and Sightron optic, less than 10.5 lbs.
Other competitors use similar set ups and can get into the 3" zone at 1048 yards, my best to date is 4.00" for 5 shots.

There are many ways to skin a cat ......this is just one.

 

[CharlieNC]

With es/sd, how could you trust a one shot ladder? This is a good thread, keep it on target.

Harmonic compensation minimizes the effect of velocity differences on poi, at which point the node is developed. One shot is not itself a sufficiently definitive description of the method. For example one shot spaced at 0.2gr increments can be much more informative than two shots spaced at 0.5gr increments; like the difference between analog vs older low resolution digital when it comes to interpreting the target. But the point you make is exactly why those who use this approach to identify the node via velocity encounter inaccuracies, plus missing the effect of harmonic compensation on the poi.

 

[Alex Wheeler]

alex, all the others,
a ladder helps find NODES, NOT LOADS.
GROUPS HELP FIND LOADS
BUT A LADDER IS NOT THREE SHOT GROUPS

a ladder leaning against your house has SINGLE steps going up.
you do not climb a ladder by stepping on each rung three times.
when was the last time you saw a ladder with THREE RUNGS FOR EACH STEP.
i admit it is a word game, but i grew up on english and understand the
difference between STEPS AND GROUPS.

We can call it a modified ladder, and we do sometimes. I dont worry about terms. So far as not finding loads if you look at the match results from Deep Creek, most of the top shooters are tuning strictly with ladder type tests. Bottom line for me is I want to run all my test groups at one time to get the same condition. Using the same poa gives you a lot of other data as well. I use the same format for anything I want to test, not just powder.

 

[retired]

i call what you are doing group shooting.

We can call it a modified ladder, and we do sometimes. I dont worry about terms. So far as not finding loads if you look at the match results from Deep Creek, most of the top shooters are tuning strictly with ladder type tests. Bottom line for me is I want to run all my test groups at one time to get the same condition. Using the same poa gives you a lot of other data as well. I use the same format for anything I want to test, not just powder.

 

[jimmymac]

i call what you are doing group shooting.

Must you be a persistent pain in the ass? It's pretty much a given that any place you show up on this forum, there is negativity and controversy as you pick the fly shit out of the pepper. I hope you are not nearly as miserable as your internet persona indicates.