getting neck runout on brass after redding type s die

[rrgertz64]

With a regular sizing dies remove the expander and open up the neck with a mandrel to desired size for neck tension. Opening the neck from the top seems to solve the runout issues. Only problem is you are sizing the necks quite a bit.

I have Forster dies honed down to a reasonable amount of sizing less than standard dies and use mandrels to open up the neck for my desired neck tension.

Pushes issues to the outside, no donut issues and gives the least runout of any other method I’ve used.

 

[rockwind1]

Tesero I’m on board with that. It’s just a week or so wait every time i have to order a bushing. So i still experiment with other changes to see if something else makes a difference. Who knows? Maybe I have to spin 3 Times counterclockwise blindfolded prior to touching any brass.

Muleman. I have actually done those things, except I use a 21st-century mandrel. The problem with the mandrel is it doesn’t really give me enough neck tension but I have tried it of coarse.
The latest thing I tried was putting an O-ring below the locknut On the die that works great actually but it hasn’t solve my problem.

That is an interesting thought on the accuracy one gauge, basically you’re saying I possibly don’t have any runout. Sure

 

[Tesoro]

Hey do second day air on your bushings! cheaper than screwing up a bunch of match brass that you cannot get right no matter what without the correct bushing sequence among other things!!
If you keep massaging your necks back and forth you will need to order a benchsource!

 

[Bart B.]

That is an interesting thought on the accuracy one gauge, basically you’re saying I possibly don’t have any runout.

You may not.

No commercial runout gauge positions a rimless bottleneck cartridge for bullet runout like it is in the chamber when fired.

When fired, only one diameter on the case shoulder and one point on the case pressure ring touch the chamber. There's clearance everywhere else. Excepting bullet contact with rifling if so assembled.

 

[rockwind1]

Well. Actually it’s just federal brass for my 308 it’s what I’m practicing on before I touch my Lapua 308 brass.( I’ve read on here many times that Federal brass is not all that great I have a ton of the ones fired federal stuff as well as even more once fired Lake City stuff but I will keep that second day air in mind. It does drive me crazy every time I have to order something. But I ordered it a few days ago and now we are A family vacation so it works out well, when I get back I get to try this final piece of the puzzle What I’m really practicing for is to start loading for my gap 6.5 4s short action ultra mag and develop a hunting load for this coming hunting season. I really only get to use Hornaday brass for that I wish I could get Lapua. I do have some necked down nor my brass but only about 48 of one lot and 30 of another so I don’t think it’s a good option. In fact I posted a video on another thread of the Norma amm I do have some necked down Norma brass but only about 48 of one lot and 30 of another so I don’t think it’s a good option. In fact I posted a video on another thread of the The ammo that I used with Norma brass and how far off concentric it was. It was really far off and it did still maybe shoot one or 1.5 Moa

 

[muleman69]

You may not.

No commercial runout gauge positions a rimless bottleneck cartridge for bullet runout like it is in the chamber when fired.

When fired, only one diameter on the case shoulder and one point on the case pressure ring touch the chamber. There's clearance everywhere else. Excepting bullet contact with rifling if so assembled.

So does this mean bullet runout really means nothing? Just curious ,maybe I have missed something

 

[Bart B.]

So does this mean bullet runout really means nothing?

No, but it's important to keep it small. And correctly measured.

People have shot the same lot of 308 Win ammo with new, unprepped cases, .003" runout at bullet tip, 3/10ths grain charge weight spread and across several match rifles got about half MOA accuracy at 600 yards. Good rifles shoot very well without a lot if detailed ammo component and small tolerances. Competent shooter assumed .

 

[muleman69]

No, but it's important to keep it small. And correctly measured.

People have shot the same lot of 308 Win ammo with new, unprepped cases, .003" runout at bullet tip, 3/10ths grain charge weight spread and across several match rifles got about half MOA accuracy at 600 yards. Good rifles shoot very well without a lot if detailed ammo component and small tolerances. Competent shooter assumed .

I try to keep my 6br under .002,maybe I worry to much? I check runout just behind ogive ,is that the correct spot?

 

[fredo]

<snip> one reason i started reloading is that i want to make ammo that is BETTER than factory,,,and what happens when i start reloading for something other than a hunting rifle where i want better results.

would whidden dies fix this because they are just way better made than redding?<snip>

Just read thru this thread, and failing to see where a trued neck diameter (via turning) has been deemed an essential prerequisite to building/sizing brass with minimal runout?

Wanna make ammo "better than factory"? Start at the start...

Buy a quality case neck gauge, quality neck turning equipment (mandrels/cutter, etc.), and learn how to use them.

Simple fact is, if you're NOT truing your neck diameter to a consistent thickness, all the way around its circumference, then no manner of die/bushing manipulation, adjustment, brand, or other shenanigan is going to make those necks with less runout. Not if the root cause is a pre-existing condition of thickness variation, anyway...

Start at the start. If you're not starting out with a consistent neck diameter (via turning/cutting eccentricity away), then topics discussed here offer more of a band aid, than a cure...

Lots of good info here! Just apply it to your situation AFTER you've addressed the elephant in the room. That being, un-trued neck thickness...

Last point:
If this is for a hunting rifle, choose your battles and be realistic! Even the best-est, most trued & wonderfully perfect ammunition won't necessarily make a hunting spec. rifle shoot like a purpose built target rifle. There's a trade-off between time & effort, for results. Just sayin', don't sweat reloading to the 'nth degree if it might not translate directly to improving results in that particular rifle...
Have fun and good luck!

 

[Bart B.]

I try to keep my 6br under .002,maybe I worry to much? I check runout just behind ogive ,is that the correct spot?

Close to the bullet tip will give bigger runout numbers than next to the case mouth.

I'll get 6mm BR cartridge dimensions then calculate runout across different setups.

 

[Bart B.]

Measuring bullet runout equates to a long pipe that's bent or curved a little at one point. Depending on how it's rested on two places and where it's bend point is, spinning it will put different places on its length varying amounts from its spin axis.

If every cartridge has a standard for each case rest point and dial indicatindicator position, a given cartridge would have the same number read on its dial indicator.

Trying to come up with a simple explanation but all the variables involved complicate things. For example, a .001" case body out of round condition can cause a .002" or more runout indication onnrge dial indicator.

 

[muleman69]

Measuring bullet runout equates to a long pipe that's bent or curved a little at one point. Depending on how it's rested on two places and where it's bend point is, spinning it will put different places on its length varying amounts from its spin axis.

If every cartridge has a standard for each case rest point and dial indicatindicator position, a given cartridge would have the same number read on its dial indicator.

Trying to come up with a simple explanation but all the variables involved complicate things. For example, a .001" case body out of round condition can cause a .002" or more runout indication onnrge dial indicator.

Good info, never once thought about the case body

 

[Webster]

Get rid of the shell holder clip on the ram, and also get rid of the expander on the die.
Terry

I always assumed that the case entering the die would move the shell holder where the case was held in the die. Cannot believe that little spring would force the case into the machined die crooked. Even if the shell holder is not centered the die is made to high tolerances. The case can only go one way into the die.

As I type I get new thoughts. Since a bushing die body doesn't size any part of the neck. The neck should be very straight as it is fired in a chamber that's machined to some spec. What's the neck runout as fired? This means that as the case enters the top of the die the die itself never touches the neck. The neck gets pushed into the floating bushing and it should force the floating bushing to center on the neck with the body held in alignment by the die. The runout can result from the stack up of many tolerances? A bushing die only sizes the front half of the neck. The back half should remain as fired in the chamber. What's the runout on the neck before forcing a bullet into it. The wall thickness changes each time it's fired. If a case is neck turned and fired several times the wall thickness changes and not evenly. Fire a case 2-3 times and put it in your neck turner. You will remove move brass and only off high spots.

One side of the Redding bushing is supposed to be beveled so the case doesn't catch on one edge. It's been a long time since I looked at a bushing but both sides look about the same to me. I read somewhere to insert the die bushing size numbers up.

 

[Webster]

Hey I know I am jumping into someone elses' thread about his particular needs -but- if you suggest removing the expander die in say a - Redding type S f/l sizing body die, how do you open the neck back up? Expander mandrel like Sinclairs? Glad to butt out if my questions aren't on the same topic - thx, Bill W

Never had a reason to open up the neck. The bushing gives me the diameter I want.

 

[fatelvis]

I read somewhere to insert the die bushing size numbers up.

Actually Redding says to insert the bushing with the stamped numbers facing DOWN.

 

[Dave M.]

i have once fired (in my chamber) federal fgmm match brass, cleaned.. i set up my redding type s FL die (it has the floating neck bushing in it, size 332) anyway, i have a decent accuracy one concentricity guage, i check the neck before i run it in the die and the neck usually has from a little bit less than .001 to .0015ish. but after i run them thru, i check the neck and it is well over .002, sometimes hitting .003 or .0035)

i am lubing the necks with unique, and i am using Tit bushings

the necks were trimmed with a giraud trimmer so they look squared and chameferred

now for this particlur 308, this is probably not a big deal BUT i want to know why it is doing it and how i can fix it cause i will be loading for a gun i want to be very dialed in after this one.

am i being too picky on the neck runout,,, i just don't see why it get's worse after sizing.

when i set up the die in my redding t-7, i used a die from a tap and die set, which is very "square" and i used it to square up the ram with the redding die by squishing it in between them , then i tightened up the locking ring to where i wanted it for bumping.

i have experimented with how loose the bushing die is, i started by just lightly tightening it down (that was a disaster with like .010 run) so then i loosened it up in 1/16th turn increments with no effect other than what i have mentioned. i did this becasue of a thread i read on here. here is a video if it helps. would appreciate any help.
also, i am not keeping the expander ball in there, with the 332 bushing, i am only getting about .001 of neck tension so i didn't want it to expand it out.

before i size the neck down, it is .346, after i size it with the 332 bushing, it is .330, when i put the bullit in it is .338

if i install the expander, it makes the neck .338 so i will have no neck tension, same with my expanding mandrell .30 cal from 21st century, it also expanded neck out to .338 so if i use either of those, i have zero neck tension. (which is another question in itself? and i may ask on another thread)

the brass is not necked down. the only thing i can think is that a thinner weaker section of the brass is pushing it off to one side,,,, but then why did it fireform so much nicer, concentricity wise.

ok, i guess i just want to know if there is a way to fix it, or does it need to be fixed for my 1/2-1/4 moa goal? i just don't want to work my way thru 200 loaded rounds only to find out how to fix it.

update: so went and flipped the neck bushing over and it works way better now. weird. i sort of cleaned it out (the hole from the top) a little.

The way I read this you are sizing the neck down .016” in a single step with a bushing??? If so, that is way too much. This is likely causing part of your problem. Perhaps try in two or even three steps.

 

[Tod Hendricks]

Bushings are hit n miss for concentricity, sometimes floating is best, sometimes snugged tight is best.

Tightening down while the neck is in the bushing can help, sometimes!

Sanding the contact side of the bushing helps, put sandpaper on piece of granite or similar flat surface. Do the same with the face of the decapping pin lock nut the bushing is pushed against, both sides. The contact side of the bushing is the up side.

Turn the brass 180 after the first upstroke and size again. For me this is the biggest improvement.

In my experience, Wilson bushings are the best for concentricity, not perfect but on average better than others.